Sunday, August 28, 2005
Oreos
Black and white is teh hot!
Frum guys know how to dress. Well at least they should. I think the Torah has a lot to say on the subject. In my understanding, that is why the Charedi world has a fairly uniform standard of dress. Not because one guy got a huge wholesale deal on white shirts and black suits, but because it reflects intrinsic values in Torah. Now don't confuse what I'm saying with Halachah. I don't think that we are required to wear anything specific. After the basic rules of modesty are filled, the rest is left up to our discretion. I put a lot of thought into what I wear based on my understanding of Torah values (as I try with every decision I make). I want to share some of those opinions here.
Modesty isn't just about revealing the flesh. It is an attitude. It is about being humble. It is about placing more importance on things other than physical beauty. This Torah value shouldn't just be reflected in skirts for girls. Guys too need to be conscious of what they are wearing. Shorts, short sleeves, and even bathing suits. Everyone faces a level of Tznius. And it doesn't matter where you are. The concept of Tznius is "Standing before Gd," so it applies even when you're alone. It's not only about tempting others. It's knowing that at every minute we're standing in front of a king. How could we not dress appropriately? Forget about knees, I don't go out with out a sport coat on, just like I wouldn't go out to the store in an undershirt. Notwithstanding those who wear flip-flops to the White House, I could not walk around with anything less than the layers required of being in such exalted presence.
But it's not just about how many layers you wear. It's also about attitude. How can we be flamboyant, attention grabbing, when we are in the presence of a King? Anything so attention grabbing that it is just silly (as is common with the retro, pimpin' look), is ludicrous when we consider what Judaism has to say about our mission in this world. For this same reason, we should try and wear clean, pressed clothing. A Jew should be a beacon of someone who is not slovenly. After all, the servant's appearance reflects on the Master.
I think cost is a factor too. Gd has provided us with opportunities to make a living. With the money we earn, we can do many things. I don't think shopping was meant to be one of our goals on Earth. Maybe materialistic American marketers will tell you otherwise. But I don't think Gd wants us to see an $800 suit as an end. But it isn't just about overly expensive. It's also about total dollars. Do we really need to buy a new wardrobe every season? What was wrong with last years clothes? Sure, things wear out, but if not, why buy so many new items? I don't think it is a Torah value to be buying things that will go out of style and need regular replacing. Simple, classic styles will suffice. All those patterns are quite excessive and can end up looking like an old Chanukah gift. For example, I've been in certain "modern" communities where it seemed they were a good 20 years out of style!
I want to be clear that these are just some of the thoughts floating around in my head and are by no means Halachah. Obviously there is no one way to dress in Judaism, nor do I think somebody that dresses with a different standard is any better or worse than me. Just because somebody wears "traditional" dress doesn't mean they have put any thought into the subject; Nor does somebody who wears the whole rainbow necessarily ignore religious values. But I do think that if somebody believes Judaism is a value system, and not just a list of independent laws, then there will be an application of those values into the minutiae of daily life. How each person interprets these will differ, but it will reflect the role they see for themselves in this world.
Frum guys know how to dress. Well at least they should. I think the Torah has a lot to say on the subject. In my understanding, that is why the Charedi world has a fairly uniform standard of dress. Not because one guy got a huge wholesale deal on white shirts and black suits, but because it reflects intrinsic values in Torah. Now don't confuse what I'm saying with Halachah. I don't think that we are required to wear anything specific. After the basic rules of modesty are filled, the rest is left up to our discretion. I put a lot of thought into what I wear based on my understanding of Torah values (as I try with every decision I make). I want to share some of those opinions here.
Modesty isn't just about revealing the flesh. It is an attitude. It is about being humble. It is about placing more importance on things other than physical beauty. This Torah value shouldn't just be reflected in skirts for girls. Guys too need to be conscious of what they are wearing. Shorts, short sleeves, and even bathing suits. Everyone faces a level of Tznius. And it doesn't matter where you are. The concept of Tznius is "Standing before Gd," so it applies even when you're alone. It's not only about tempting others. It's knowing that at every minute we're standing in front of a king. How could we not dress appropriately? Forget about knees, I don't go out with out a sport coat on, just like I wouldn't go out to the store in an undershirt. Notwithstanding those who wear flip-flops to the White House, I could not walk around with anything less than the layers required of being in such exalted presence.
But it's not just about how many layers you wear. It's also about attitude. How can we be flamboyant, attention grabbing, when we are in the presence of a King? Anything so attention grabbing that it is just silly (as is common with the retro, pimpin' look), is ludicrous when we consider what Judaism has to say about our mission in this world. For this same reason, we should try and wear clean, pressed clothing. A Jew should be a beacon of someone who is not slovenly. After all, the servant's appearance reflects on the Master.
I think cost is a factor too. Gd has provided us with opportunities to make a living. With the money we earn, we can do many things. I don't think shopping was meant to be one of our goals on Earth. Maybe materialistic American marketers will tell you otherwise. But I don't think Gd wants us to see an $800 suit as an end. But it isn't just about overly expensive. It's also about total dollars. Do we really need to buy a new wardrobe every season? What was wrong with last years clothes? Sure, things wear out, but if not, why buy so many new items? I don't think it is a Torah value to be buying things that will go out of style and need regular replacing. Simple, classic styles will suffice. All those patterns are quite excessive and can end up looking like an old Chanukah gift. For example, I've been in certain "modern" communities where it seemed they were a good 20 years out of style!
I want to be clear that these are just some of the thoughts floating around in my head and are by no means Halachah. Obviously there is no one way to dress in Judaism, nor do I think somebody that dresses with a different standard is any better or worse than me. Just because somebody wears "traditional" dress doesn't mean they have put any thought into the subject; Nor does somebody who wears the whole rainbow necessarily ignore religious values. But I do think that if somebody believes Judaism is a value system, and not just a list of independent laws, then there will be an application of those values into the minutiae of daily life. How each person interprets these will differ, but it will reflect the role they see for themselves in this world.
# posted by Josh : Sunday, August 28, 2005
Comments:
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for the record,
this past shabbos was the first time i ever saw erica wear a skirt (and i've known her for ten years.) she happened to look BEAUTIFUL! seriously, she was dressed in a very tznius fashion, skirt past her knees (actually to her ankles, although i've heard that some rabbis in some communities feel that a skirt shouldn't be longer than mid-calf length), and shirt with 3/4 length sleeves. she was like a different person and i'd love to see her dress like that more often, not just on shabbos.
josh, i agree with what youre saying and never thought about it like that. but how does this fit with the modern odox community where many of the shuls are like fashion shows? i thought one of the ideas behind being tznius was not to be too gaudy in order not to embarrass those who don't have the same. for example, i used to occasionally daven in one of the young israels in brooklyn. all of the women were dressed so richly, and there i was in my "good" skirt and blouse, feeling like i had nothing, and being sooo aware of it since the women all around me were talking about this prada bag, and that expensive suit of dress or whatever. i know that in shul we should transcend all of that materialism, but it's very difficult to do that when it's the topic of conversation DURING davening.
this past shabbos was the first time i ever saw erica wear a skirt (and i've known her for ten years.) she happened to look BEAUTIFUL! seriously, she was dressed in a very tznius fashion, skirt past her knees (actually to her ankles, although i've heard that some rabbis in some communities feel that a skirt shouldn't be longer than mid-calf length), and shirt with 3/4 length sleeves. she was like a different person and i'd love to see her dress like that more often, not just on shabbos.
josh, i agree with what youre saying and never thought about it like that. but how does this fit with the modern odox community where many of the shuls are like fashion shows? i thought one of the ideas behind being tznius was not to be too gaudy in order not to embarrass those who don't have the same. for example, i used to occasionally daven in one of the young israels in brooklyn. all of the women were dressed so richly, and there i was in my "good" skirt and blouse, feeling like i had nothing, and being sooo aware of it since the women all around me were talking about this prada bag, and that expensive suit of dress or whatever. i know that in shul we should transcend all of that materialism, but it's very difficult to do that when it's the topic of conversation DURING davening.
E - I have always found dresses uncomfortable to wear too. But I don't think you should feel like a "bad influence" for not wearing typical frummy wear. While Halacha may be paramount in the Orthodox world, sincerity in actually feeling the reason for the action is also important. So in many ways your Tznius personality is more impressive than those frum people who toe the "modest" (hem)line.
where is the line drawn between stately and remarkable, and just plain ungepotchked and gawdy?
That's exactly what it means that the Halacha has ended, and personal judgement comes into play. What may be showy for one person might be well-kempt for another. My whole point is that we should factor a religious outlook on life into every decision. Halachah doesn't tell us EVERYTHING that we should do, because it wants to leave room for us to take our own approach to interacting with Gdliness in this world.
BTW, my trip is tomorrow...
B - I didn't mean to criticize one segment of the Ortho community at the expense of another. I fully agree with what you say, I think gaudy dress is against Torah values. In fact, I think it's so against Judaism that I ignored it as obvious. It is just a further example of how people still need to factor in Torah into their decisions even after Halachah ends.
Orlee - Well said. I agree with everything you said, even the part where you disagree with me. The fact that you think that dressing up IS a Torah value- well, that's all that counts. There are 70 faces to the Torah and equally valid. That is the epitome of each of us using the area OUTSIDE of Halachah to find our own connection with Gd. There is no one way.
where is the line drawn between stately and remarkable, and just plain ungepotchked and gawdy?
That's exactly what it means that the Halacha has ended, and personal judgement comes into play. What may be showy for one person might be well-kempt for another. My whole point is that we should factor a religious outlook on life into every decision. Halachah doesn't tell us EVERYTHING that we should do, because it wants to leave room for us to take our own approach to interacting with Gdliness in this world.
BTW, my trip is tomorrow...
B - I didn't mean to criticize one segment of the Ortho community at the expense of another. I fully agree with what you say, I think gaudy dress is against Torah values. In fact, I think it's so against Judaism that I ignored it as obvious. It is just a further example of how people still need to factor in Torah into their decisions even after Halachah ends.
Orlee - Well said. I agree with everything you said, even the part where you disagree with me. The fact that you think that dressing up IS a Torah value- well, that's all that counts. There are 70 faces to the Torah and equally valid. That is the epitome of each of us using the area OUTSIDE of Halachah to find our own connection with Gd. There is no one way.
I'm surprised that everyone seems to have assumed that halachah has ended when it comes wearing clothing; no-one seems to have mentioned Rambam, whose exact stance stance is not crystal clear (i.e., he doesn't say "wear this and this"), but his guidelines are delineated well enough to exclude an $800 suit.
One can also feel free to be m'ayein in Seifer HaYirah by Rabbeinu Yonah Gerondi.
Halachah has a lot more to say about certain issues than the public thinks. And let's not forget about the obligation to rip a red dress off a woman even in public, a Gemara in B'rachos not too popularly quoted by the masses. This bears much similarity to the obligation to rip sha'atnez off of a person and leave him standing stark naked in public. So, au contraire, my dear friends, halachah has a lot to say about one's fashion statement.
And Josh, I agree, that one's dress code should be of a certain nature that accords with the aforementioned halachos (forgetting about chukas akum altogether because even the bekeshes and shtreimels failed on that front). However, with the currently unfortunate situation of a rampant stereotype epidemic that attaches certain representative labels to certain standards of dress, then when someone who is SO particular about his dress because he feels he's in front of the King doesn't act like he's in front of the King in both his actions and words, then the chillul HaSheim, a sin for which only death completely atones, is magnified that much more greatly. Therefore, I think we should heed Rabban Gamliel's famous criterion for accepting the most qualified students into his yeshivah and adapt it as a guiding light for our daily lives: A person's outside should be reflective of his inside (tocho k'varo).
One can also feel free to be m'ayein in Seifer HaYirah by Rabbeinu Yonah Gerondi.
Halachah has a lot more to say about certain issues than the public thinks. And let's not forget about the obligation to rip a red dress off a woman even in public, a Gemara in B'rachos not too popularly quoted by the masses. This bears much similarity to the obligation to rip sha'atnez off of a person and leave him standing stark naked in public. So, au contraire, my dear friends, halachah has a lot to say about one's fashion statement.
And Josh, I agree, that one's dress code should be of a certain nature that accords with the aforementioned halachos (forgetting about chukas akum altogether because even the bekeshes and shtreimels failed on that front). However, with the currently unfortunate situation of a rampant stereotype epidemic that attaches certain representative labels to certain standards of dress, then when someone who is SO particular about his dress because he feels he's in front of the King doesn't act like he's in front of the King in both his actions and words, then the chillul HaSheim, a sin for which only death completely atones, is magnified that much more greatly. Therefore, I think we should heed Rabban Gamliel's famous criterion for accepting the most qualified students into his yeshivah and adapt it as a guiding light for our daily lives: A person's outside should be reflective of his inside (tocho k'varo).
# posted by 
: September 01, 2005 10:00 PM
: September 01, 2005 10:00 PM
Anon - Tocho K'Voro is a wonderful pedestal for us all to reach. If we all strive for our own truth instead of insisting on community standards, more people will be empowered to find their own way of living as Gd's humble servants in the world.
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