Tuesday, December 27, 2005
For the Love of Torah
I studied at Yeshiva University, a Modern Orthodox institution alternatively called too left-wing or too right-wing, depending on where you stand. It doesn't feature the focus and commitment of the entire student body for those used to a more typical yeshiva environment, and it doesn't force its students to engage the world at large for those more comfortable in a traditional university environment.
When I read Ben's blog, I am reminded of many of my critiques of YU. I was in YU when Yeshivat Chovevei Torah first opened. I was also in YU when current President Richard Joel was hired. My reaction to both events was a bitterness towards a knee-jerk embrace of modernity without tradition as its starting point. But as my disdain and caution remain for these bastions of liberality, my jealousy and envy grow as I watch their accomplishments.
Reading about Chovevei's trip to New Orleans, or even some of Richard Joel's more open minded gestures, such as formal YU participation in the pluralistic Federation General Assembly reminds me of all the opportunities that traditional Jewish sources have neglected.
One of the larger and more Modern Orthodox synagogues in my neighborhood has been interviewing for an Assistant Rabbi widely seen as a successor to the long time senior Rabbi. YCT and YU have both sent graduates of their respective programs, and the one reaction I see to the YU Rabbis is that, no matter how talented they may be, they stick out like a sore thumb.
It's not a matter of Hashkafa. The strengths of YCT and even Edah that I've seen have nothing to do with where they fall in the religious spectrum. But they have an energy and creativity in bringing their Rabbis into the community at-large. To be fair, YU is a large, bureaucratic organization, and its Rabbinical school is a forgotten vestige. YCT is the nimble youth, able to quickly seize opportunities.
The New York Modern Orthodox community is every bit as much "ghettoized" as its Chareidi counterpart. But to be relevant outside the Tri-State area, you have to be familiar and ready to lead people who live outside a Jewish box. I just hope that Torah doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
When I read Ben's blog, I am reminded of many of my critiques of YU. I was in YU when Yeshivat Chovevei Torah first opened. I was also in YU when current President Richard Joel was hired. My reaction to both events was a bitterness towards a knee-jerk embrace of modernity without tradition as its starting point. But as my disdain and caution remain for these bastions of liberality, my jealousy and envy grow as I watch their accomplishments.
Reading about Chovevei's trip to New Orleans, or even some of Richard Joel's more open minded gestures, such as formal YU participation in the pluralistic Federation General Assembly reminds me of all the opportunities that traditional Jewish sources have neglected.
One of the larger and more Modern Orthodox synagogues in my neighborhood has been interviewing for an Assistant Rabbi widely seen as a successor to the long time senior Rabbi. YCT and YU have both sent graduates of their respective programs, and the one reaction I see to the YU Rabbis is that, no matter how talented they may be, they stick out like a sore thumb.
It's not a matter of Hashkafa. The strengths of YCT and even Edah that I've seen have nothing to do with where they fall in the religious spectrum. But they have an energy and creativity in bringing their Rabbis into the community at-large. To be fair, YU is a large, bureaucratic organization, and its Rabbinical school is a forgotten vestige. YCT is the nimble youth, able to quickly seize opportunities.
The New York Modern Orthodox community is every bit as much "ghettoized" as its Chareidi counterpart. But to be relevant outside the Tri-State area, you have to be familiar and ready to lead people who live outside a Jewish box. I just hope that Torah doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
# posted by Josh : Tuesday, December 27, 2005
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Do you still think that actions such as the ones you mentioned are a "knee-jerk embrace of modernity without tradition as its starting point"? Has your conception of tradition grown to understand that these events are not so much accomodating modernity at the expense of tradition, but rather in harmony with tradition?
Before I respond to anything specific, I just want to add a little to my post.
First, after re-reading my post, I want to make sure that nobody thinks that Ben's blog criticizes YU. It is simply his highlighting of YCT's strengths that remind me of YU's weaknesses. I don't want anyone to think that Ben is a negative person.
Second, so nobody thinks that I am just a ranting internet lunatic, I want to state that I have discussed my concerns more than once with YU's President Joel. As a side note, he was more than surprised at my critical view of YU's Rabbinical program. As one of the main people opposing his appointment to the Presidency at YU, he couldn't fathom how I could be asking him to overturn the system. Actually, it was precisely the dire need for change in the program that led me to oppose his candidacy. I fear that his (lack of) Rabbinic credentials will make it hard for him to make signficant changes to the Rabbinical school, without being perceived as an outside, ideological meddler.
Now, welcome to Ben and the YCT Chevre. Ben, obviously YCT cannot replace YU. YU is much more than a Rabbinical school, and it still has a monopoly in those other realms (for better or worse). Back in YU, I couldn't fathom why the "Left-Wing" would break off and form its own institution. I thought that there was more than enough inclusion of all student views at YU, and no institutional sway was held in defining one Hashkafic view to the students. On the contrary, I saw the YCT split as removing much of the balancing influence of a diverse student body. Now I obviously see that much of the draw of YCT is its program of study, all Hashkafic differences aside.
One of the invaluable lessons I gained from my years in Yeshiva was the primacy of personal Torah study for the "average" Jew. This personal discipline should apply equally to Jews in any Hashkafa. One of my critiques of YCT is that there are so many practical and topical courses available that students don't gain enough Talmudic studies in their ordination. (For the record, I also think YU doesn't require enough.) But I obviously believe that, for any stream of Judaism, promoting Jewish knowledge is a central priority.
Drew, as I read your first question, I realize that my original statement was inaccurate. (In describing YCT's "knee jerk reaction", it would seem I revealed my own instead.) I still believe that the founders of YCT make attempts to redefine traditional assumptions of Modern Orthodoxy that exceed that of what the laity even call for. Now the ideologies espoused from the top may impact the daily life of the institution no more than at YU, but I am still put off by any group that advertises its "open"-ness before its Orthodoxy. I have no doubt that the typical YCT student has no motive other than the preservation of our tradition, but to my point above, I worry that without a deep enough knowledge of Torah to begin with, furthered by an environment that encourages pushing boundaries, the definition of "tradition" is at risk, even if unintentionally.
Above all, though, I want to reinforce that YCT is full of people and ideas with a lot of potential. Thanks for your feedback!
First, after re-reading my post, I want to make sure that nobody thinks that Ben's blog criticizes YU. It is simply his highlighting of YCT's strengths that remind me of YU's weaknesses. I don't want anyone to think that Ben is a negative person.
Second, so nobody thinks that I am just a ranting internet lunatic, I want to state that I have discussed my concerns more than once with YU's President Joel. As a side note, he was more than surprised at my critical view of YU's Rabbinical program. As one of the main people opposing his appointment to the Presidency at YU, he couldn't fathom how I could be asking him to overturn the system. Actually, it was precisely the dire need for change in the program that led me to oppose his candidacy. I fear that his (lack of) Rabbinic credentials will make it hard for him to make signficant changes to the Rabbinical school, without being perceived as an outside, ideological meddler.
Now, welcome to Ben and the YCT Chevre. Ben, obviously YCT cannot replace YU. YU is much more than a Rabbinical school, and it still has a monopoly in those other realms (for better or worse). Back in YU, I couldn't fathom why the "Left-Wing" would break off and form its own institution. I thought that there was more than enough inclusion of all student views at YU, and no institutional sway was held in defining one Hashkafic view to the students. On the contrary, I saw the YCT split as removing much of the balancing influence of a diverse student body. Now I obviously see that much of the draw of YCT is its program of study, all Hashkafic differences aside.
One of the invaluable lessons I gained from my years in Yeshiva was the primacy of personal Torah study for the "average" Jew. This personal discipline should apply equally to Jews in any Hashkafa. One of my critiques of YCT is that there are so many practical and topical courses available that students don't gain enough Talmudic studies in their ordination. (For the record, I also think YU doesn't require enough.) But I obviously believe that, for any stream of Judaism, promoting Jewish knowledge is a central priority.
Drew, as I read your first question, I realize that my original statement was inaccurate. (In describing YCT's "knee jerk reaction", it would seem I revealed my own instead.) I still believe that the founders of YCT make attempts to redefine traditional assumptions of Modern Orthodoxy that exceed that of what the laity even call for. Now the ideologies espoused from the top may impact the daily life of the institution no more than at YU, but I am still put off by any group that advertises its "open"-ness before its Orthodoxy. I have no doubt that the typical YCT student has no motive other than the preservation of our tradition, but to my point above, I worry that without a deep enough knowledge of Torah to begin with, furthered by an environment that encourages pushing boundaries, the definition of "tradition" is at risk, even if unintentionally.
Above all, though, I want to reinforce that YCT is full of people and ideas with a lot of potential. Thanks for your feedback!
i'm going to side with longbrownponytail on this one, especially in light of parasha miketz, what with yosef living in golus and still being able to maintain a level of judaism so great that we honor him every time we bless our sons in the names of his sons.... so if we aspire to greatness, and that greatness involves the torah, and leading a more torah observant lifestyle, then the torah will never be lost, as we will never be lost. it's when we stop following the torah, that we need to worry.
Josh,
I want to say that I most certainly agree with you on YCT and YU not requiring enough Talmudic studies in their curricula (though YU does have more). Nevertheless, YCT does have long days where there is more than just Talmud taught, with a big emphasis on halakhah (which is more important for a rabbi?...), contributing to, in your words, "promoting Jewish knowledge". I don't think it is at YCT that "the ideologies espoused from the top may impact the daily life of the institution no more than at YU" - at YCT, there is an ongoing dialogue about ideologies, so inasmuch as there may be such things from the top down, we students also have influence in contributing to the discussion, which is noticeably different than things are at YU. Where you "worry that without a deep enough knowledge of Torah to begin with, furthered by an environment that encourages pushing boundaries, the definition of "tradition" is at risk, even if unintentionally", there is that risk, but I wonder how much the environment at YCT encourages pushes boundaries. You are correct that the definition of "Tradition" is at risk as there are various understandings of what "tradition" means.
Masmida,
Who was labelling you as "fundamentalist"? The direct punishment thing as AIDS for homosexuality would fit into that category, and if that person said he has heard it, then it is likely that someone has said it, and if so, it would have been within that rubric.
Photochick,
It is definitely possible, but certainly not easily accomplished.
What is the point of shabbas that you sensed they seemed to have missed? Were they not relaxing or taking things at ease? If so, then I can understand what you were saying.
I want to say that I most certainly agree with you on YCT and YU not requiring enough Talmudic studies in their curricula (though YU does have more). Nevertheless, YCT does have long days where there is more than just Talmud taught, with a big emphasis on halakhah (which is more important for a rabbi?...), contributing to, in your words, "promoting Jewish knowledge". I don't think it is at YCT that "the ideologies espoused from the top may impact the daily life of the institution no more than at YU" - at YCT, there is an ongoing dialogue about ideologies, so inasmuch as there may be such things from the top down, we students also have influence in contributing to the discussion, which is noticeably different than things are at YU. Where you "worry that without a deep enough knowledge of Torah to begin with, furthered by an environment that encourages pushing boundaries, the definition of "tradition" is at risk, even if unintentionally", there is that risk, but I wonder how much the environment at YCT encourages pushes boundaries. You are correct that the definition of "Tradition" is at risk as there are various understandings of what "tradition" means.
Masmida,
Who was labelling you as "fundamentalist"? The direct punishment thing as AIDS for homosexuality would fit into that category, and if that person said he has heard it, then it is likely that someone has said it, and if so, it would have been within that rubric.
Photochick,
It is definitely possible, but certainly not easily accomplished.
What is the point of shabbas that you sensed they seemed to have missed? Were they not relaxing or taking things at ease? If so, then I can understand what you were saying.
Masmida - I know where you're coming from with the "fundamentalist" problem. One of the main tactics of anyone on the fringes is to portray those on the other extreme as marginalists, thereby centralizing their own position. I think you put it very well, that at the very least we have to treat Gedolei Torah as such, even when we disagree. Like any debate, strength is accomplished in arguments, not name calling.
I have always been bothered by leaders who try and take the lead in reforming religion in place of building it up. I don't think that means that leaders have to blindly encourage people to be religious sheep, but there is a difference between offering shiurim on Jewish History to the community and simply preaching about how the Chareidi community doesn't engage in anything other than Talmud. I'm not saying how prevalent that is (of course, people mostly "hear" about the controversial statements), just reflecting on how that creates the bad taste that Masmida mentions.
LBP and Bec - You are right that Torah will never be forgotten. I believe that the Jewish people will survive. But remember, our tradition holds that 80% of the Jewish people in Egypt didn't make it out. I want to see growth in numbers, not just maintanence of them.
PC - A good point. I'll use the example of TV, since it is a fairly accepted item in Modern Orthodoxy (albeit not universally), and generally unacceptable in Yeshivish Orthodoxy (albeit not universally). Would we say that since TV is here, therefore we should watch it? In theory, I could make distinctions about which shows are clean, how much time should be spent, etc. Of everyone I know, though, it's either TV is absolutely fine (What!? There's a problem with TV now?!), or it's the devil. So we can say modernity reconciles with tradition, you know, just turn it off for Shabbos, or no, it doesn't, so don't get into it in the first place. I think the problem in the Modern world, is that religion is put into a corner, and then the rest of the time is "normal" time, i.e. I daven in the morning, then go to workout in a co-ed pool. I could go on too far here, but I think I've touched the surface, which should be enough to get people thinking.
Drew - I certainly think that every discipline studied on top of Gemara is important to producing Rabbanim. And it sounds very intriguing that the students have a voice in defining the institution. Unfortunately, I think YU is a little rudderless, without one dominant Rabbinic figure. As far as redefining tradition, I think it's great to have students asking tough questions of teachers, and it's important to have teachers bold enough to expose students to a wide range of answers. I think what can be worrisome is an environment that specifically encourages students not to start with the status quo (which you say is not the case at YCT). You can question the status quo, but a primary assumption of Orthodoxy has to be our tradition, which can be re-analyzed according to certain (debatable) rules.
Everyone thanks for adding to the conversation!
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I have always been bothered by leaders who try and take the lead in reforming religion in place of building it up. I don't think that means that leaders have to blindly encourage people to be religious sheep, but there is a difference between offering shiurim on Jewish History to the community and simply preaching about how the Chareidi community doesn't engage in anything other than Talmud. I'm not saying how prevalent that is (of course, people mostly "hear" about the controversial statements), just reflecting on how that creates the bad taste that Masmida mentions.
LBP and Bec - You are right that Torah will never be forgotten. I believe that the Jewish people will survive. But remember, our tradition holds that 80% of the Jewish people in Egypt didn't make it out. I want to see growth in numbers, not just maintanence of them.
PC - A good point. I'll use the example of TV, since it is a fairly accepted item in Modern Orthodoxy (albeit not universally), and generally unacceptable in Yeshivish Orthodoxy (albeit not universally). Would we say that since TV is here, therefore we should watch it? In theory, I could make distinctions about which shows are clean, how much time should be spent, etc. Of everyone I know, though, it's either TV is absolutely fine (What!? There's a problem with TV now?!), or it's the devil. So we can say modernity reconciles with tradition, you know, just turn it off for Shabbos, or no, it doesn't, so don't get into it in the first place. I think the problem in the Modern world, is that religion is put into a corner, and then the rest of the time is "normal" time, i.e. I daven in the morning, then go to workout in a co-ed pool. I could go on too far here, but I think I've touched the surface, which should be enough to get people thinking.
Drew - I certainly think that every discipline studied on top of Gemara is important to producing Rabbanim. And it sounds very intriguing that the students have a voice in defining the institution. Unfortunately, I think YU is a little rudderless, without one dominant Rabbinic figure. As far as redefining tradition, I think it's great to have students asking tough questions of teachers, and it's important to have teachers bold enough to expose students to a wide range of answers. I think what can be worrisome is an environment that specifically encourages students not to start with the status quo (which you say is not the case at YCT). You can question the status quo, but a primary assumption of Orthodoxy has to be our tradition, which can be re-analyzed according to certain (debatable) rules.
Everyone thanks for adding to the conversation!
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