Wednesday, January 25, 2006
Cold Flight
One of the great things about flying to Israel is that the whole experience is just one potential blog post after another.
On my flight over, I had my long time prayers answered. I was actually seated next to the attractive frum girl I saw boarding on my flight. This reminded me of a number of issues recently addressed in the comments section of Semgirl's Blog, whether the frum world would be better off if guys and girls just went up to each other and initiated conversation. I'll ignore my opinion for the moment, and just present the case study. Sitting next to this girl for a few hours, I tried to initiate conversation three
times, but was given cold looks each time. I finally resigned to shmoozing with the Yeshivish guy across the aisle, who gave me more warmth.
I don't know if this girl was just too frum to talk to me. Or maybe she was worried that other people would see her talking to me. Or maybe she thought I would think it untoward to be spoken to by a single girl (of course, I was addressing her...). Or maybe she thought I was a murderous stalker. But how can we even speak about whether boys and girls should let down the barriers a little bit, if this girl wouldn't even take advantage of the opportunity given her?
For the record, this girl had tons of makeup on, and wasn't exactly dressed "frumpy." In my mind that at least means that she wants attention. I wasn't hitting on this girl, so it wasn't like there was any pressure. It was just the friendly banter of two people trapped in a small space for a long time.
Was I wrong? Or did she just not know how to deal with the situation?
Further, on my return flight, I was stuck at a European airport for a few hours on a layover with (B"H) a young frum girl from my flight. I approached her at one point, but she didn't invite me to sit down, so instead the only two frum people in this airport sat on opposite ends of the terminal. Now I could have been more direct. And maybe I just need better ice-breaking lines (I guess, "do you know what gate we're leaving from" doesn't say "let's shmooze"). I do believe that these casual interactions are very harmless and can have healthy effects- aside from learning how to deal with the opposite gender, you never know who might be right for each other - people have friends!
So if there is a reason to take advantage of informal co-ed interaction, how are we actually supposed to implement it with so many unspoken barriers in place?
On my flight over, I had my long time prayers answered. I was actually seated next to the attractive frum girl I saw boarding on my flight. This reminded me of a number of issues recently addressed in the comments section of Semgirl's Blog, whether the frum world would be better off if guys and girls just went up to each other and initiated conversation. I'll ignore my opinion for the moment, and just present the case study. Sitting next to this girl for a few hours, I tried to initiate conversation three
times, but was given cold looks each time. I finally resigned to shmoozing with the Yeshivish guy across the aisle, who gave me more warmth.
I don't know if this girl was just too frum to talk to me. Or maybe she was worried that other people would see her talking to me. Or maybe she thought I would think it untoward to be spoken to by a single girl (of course, I was addressing her...). Or maybe she thought I was a murderous stalker. But how can we even speak about whether boys and girls should let down the barriers a little bit, if this girl wouldn't even take advantage of the opportunity given her?
For the record, this girl had tons of makeup on, and wasn't exactly dressed "frumpy." In my mind that at least means that she wants attention. I wasn't hitting on this girl, so it wasn't like there was any pressure. It was just the friendly banter of two people trapped in a small space for a long time.
Was I wrong? Or did she just not know how to deal with the situation?
Further, on my return flight, I was stuck at a European airport for a few hours on a layover with (B"H) a young frum girl from my flight. I approached her at one point, but she didn't invite me to sit down, so instead the only two frum people in this airport sat on opposite ends of the terminal. Now I could have been more direct. And maybe I just need better ice-breaking lines (I guess, "do you know what gate we're leaving from" doesn't say "let's shmooze"). I do believe that these casual interactions are very harmless and can have healthy effects- aside from learning how to deal with the opposite gender, you never know who might be right for each other - people have friends!
So if there is a reason to take advantage of informal co-ed interaction, how are we actually supposed to implement it with so many unspoken barriers in place?
# posted by Josh : Wednesday, January 25, 2006
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I had no idea it was quite this hard for people to talk to each other if they wanted to.
I remember when I was in Bnei Brak there was this big Friday night promenade down Rabbi Akiva Street, teh main drag. Every time I'd walk that way on Friday night there would be these adorable 18 year old yeshiva bochurs who would smile at me and say, "Shabbat Shalom" in this flirty way. Sometimes I'd stop and talk with them. Maybe they'd point to one of their frinds and say, "He likes you." It was all so cute.
Occasionally some real hardcore frumsters would see this and look outraged but it seemed everyone else thought those kinds of people were religious fanaitics (ironic because the rest of Tel-Aviv thought everyonne in Bnei Brak was a religious fanaitic."
I am not sure what made these guys different. Perhaps it was ethnicity - I'd say some 60-70% of these guys were Sephardi/Mizrachi. Still, that means 30-40% were Ashkenazi. Then there were the two guys from Antwep who not only spoke to me when I looked confused while deciding which way to go in Bnei Brak but INVITED ME TO THEIR APARTMENT in the Kiryat Vizhnitz area. Cool guys, but they point blank said that they don't keep the separation between men and women - and thes were perhaps yeshivish kinda guys in black suits and hats who worked in the diamond industry. Lastly, perhaps my being Black emboldened some of these guys to speak to me when maybe the felt it was foprbidden - even though I clearly was dressed like an good Orthodox woman, long skirt and all.
Learning how to talk to women takes practice. You just have to keep doing it and you will get better and better. Moreover, you will find women more responsive than the ones you describe.
You know, religious women on the Upper West Side complain to me that religious men don't talk to them and that they have to do everything (getting numbers, asking out, etc.) and that non-Jewish men (especially Black men) are more masculine, in large part because they step up to women and ask for phone numbers. Traditionally, men do the asking and consult with each other (ideally their fathers, uncles, etc.) how to approah women and have relationships. This tradition needs to be started (or re-started)in the Orthodox Jewish world.
I remember when I was in Bnei Brak there was this big Friday night promenade down Rabbi Akiva Street, teh main drag. Every time I'd walk that way on Friday night there would be these adorable 18 year old yeshiva bochurs who would smile at me and say, "Shabbat Shalom" in this flirty way. Sometimes I'd stop and talk with them. Maybe they'd point to one of their frinds and say, "He likes you." It was all so cute.
Occasionally some real hardcore frumsters would see this and look outraged but it seemed everyone else thought those kinds of people were religious fanaitics (ironic because the rest of Tel-Aviv thought everyonne in Bnei Brak was a religious fanaitic."
I am not sure what made these guys different. Perhaps it was ethnicity - I'd say some 60-70% of these guys were Sephardi/Mizrachi. Still, that means 30-40% were Ashkenazi. Then there were the two guys from Antwep who not only spoke to me when I looked confused while deciding which way to go in Bnei Brak but INVITED ME TO THEIR APARTMENT in the Kiryat Vizhnitz area. Cool guys, but they point blank said that they don't keep the separation between men and women - and thes were perhaps yeshivish kinda guys in black suits and hats who worked in the diamond industry. Lastly, perhaps my being Black emboldened some of these guys to speak to me when maybe the felt it was foprbidden - even though I clearly was dressed like an good Orthodox woman, long skirt and all.
Learning how to talk to women takes practice. You just have to keep doing it and you will get better and better. Moreover, you will find women more responsive than the ones you describe.
You know, religious women on the Upper West Side complain to me that religious men don't talk to them and that they have to do everything (getting numbers, asking out, etc.) and that non-Jewish men (especially Black men) are more masculine, in large part because they step up to women and ask for phone numbers. Traditionally, men do the asking and consult with each other (ideally their fathers, uncles, etc.) how to approah women and have relationships. This tradition needs to be started (or re-started)in the Orthodox Jewish world.
Well Josh, In all my travels I have not really run into any frum single girls. In England they always seemed to get a ride - probrably to avoid running the risk of a chance encounter with an upstanding yeshiva bochur - g-d forbid there should be an unsupervised conversation!
I believe that the ultimate shadchan is blogblond!!!! Well really the ultimate shadchan is the one above - people meet in many different way - everything happens for a reason. I would continue to be polite - try to start a conversation. In today's world where everyone seems to be worried about their reputation (what would happen if it got back to the dean of my seminary that I spoke to a guy on the plane!) there seems to be a simple lack of derech eretz disguiuzed under a cloak of tznius.
Maybe the right girl for you would invite you to sit and schmooze for a while and play a little jewish geography instead of sitting at opposite ends of the airport.
blogbrit
I believe that the ultimate shadchan is blogblond!!!! Well really the ultimate shadchan is the one above - people meet in many different way - everything happens for a reason. I would continue to be polite - try to start a conversation. In today's world where everyone seems to be worried about their reputation (what would happen if it got back to the dean of my seminary that I spoke to a guy on the plane!) there seems to be a simple lack of derech eretz disguiuzed under a cloak of tznius.
Maybe the right girl for you would invite you to sit and schmooze for a while and play a little jewish geography instead of sitting at opposite ends of the airport.
blogbrit
# posted by 
: January 26, 2006 2:39 PM
: January 26, 2006 2:39 PM
you're looking at this the wrong way.
think about it like this:
maybe you just take their breath away and they don't know what to say!
:D
think about it like this:
maybe you just take their breath away and they don't know what to say!
:D
David - "unspoken" barriers" - Pun intended?
Araya - Thank you! That is a great example. I understand that people aren't used to talking to the opposite sex, but the barriers aren't meant to make us awkward and anti-social. If you can't say two words without blushing or stuttering, I would say you NEED to talk to more of the opposite sex. It's great for the purity of Am Yisroel that we don't mix all of the time, but that shouldn't be an excuse not to know how to treat other people like human beings!
Marc- I knew you'd be coming from the other side of the story. UMass is no YU, and it gets worse than YU as far as separation. The funny thing is that I think between two frum people just talking it won't lead to anything Assur, but we don't have those same barriers in talking to non-frum or non-Jewish people, where I would argue that something is more likely to happen. But yet we feel more comfortable. Maybe it's because we're less self-conscious about what we're doing. Either way it's unnatural.
(Not so)Treifalicious - I'm not surprised that there are some guys willing to step up. But the guys in your example sound like they had Treifalicious intentions in mind. Maybe it was racial, they thought you'd be "easy" or something. But there is a difference between a friendly "Shabbat Shalom" and being invited up to an apartment or being told "he likes you." I think that we can be friendly without having sexual intentions. As far as your point on men being more forward, in my opinion the openness between the sexes is best not left to actually dating. I know this seems contradictory. I don't think people should flirt aimlessly or for Tachlis. Neither extreme. They should talk to be friendly. I think if they are interested, they should pursue actually getting set up with the person. Very simply, I think asking somebody out is based on very superficial things, but doing your research and making sure the spirtually important things are in place is very important. But I do think we should use the "friendly" interactions to get to know more of who is out there.
MH - If that is the case, she is a tzadekes. But I think that strikes at the core, of people realizing that not every guy girl interaction is about the two people getting married. It can just be friendly. Maybe I'll know somebody for her. This is an attitude I take on most dates. Just be open minded, and you don't stop talking to somebody because you aren't interested.
EC - I can understand the embarrassment, but I can't stress enough the fact that you should practice speaking to any guy the way you'd speak to a girl- just don't go back to his place. Truthfully, I think I want to go with your advice, just push a little more next time. I was at a wedding this past weekend, and it was mixed tables. But since I'm black hat, they put me with the BY girls. I don't think they were expecting that. They tried avoiding me, but I kept asking questions. They didn't fully warm up, but at least I never gave up.
BB - I agree. So I guess I'll keep flying around until I find her...
Bec - I look like a goat. If I'm taking their breath away, it's out of fear.
SG - They could be shy. Truthfully, not every airline passenger wants to talk, many want to sleep or watch a movie. But A) I was just talking about simple comments, not even conversation. B) I would think conversation would be more frum than reading the airline magazine, which is what she was doing. But of course, these girls are told not to talk to guys, and aren't told not to read the shtus in People magazine. The problem is that instead of educating them with Jewish values, we just tell them what to do and what not to do, so that when left to their own, these girls have no clue how to be frum in the world.
MS - Boruch Hashem.
Araya - Thank you! That is a great example. I understand that people aren't used to talking to the opposite sex, but the barriers aren't meant to make us awkward and anti-social. If you can't say two words without blushing or stuttering, I would say you NEED to talk to more of the opposite sex. It's great for the purity of Am Yisroel that we don't mix all of the time, but that shouldn't be an excuse not to know how to treat other people like human beings!
Marc- I knew you'd be coming from the other side of the story. UMass is no YU, and it gets worse than YU as far as separation. The funny thing is that I think between two frum people just talking it won't lead to anything Assur, but we don't have those same barriers in talking to non-frum or non-Jewish people, where I would argue that something is more likely to happen. But yet we feel more comfortable. Maybe it's because we're less self-conscious about what we're doing. Either way it's unnatural.
(Not so)Treifalicious - I'm not surprised that there are some guys willing to step up. But the guys in your example sound like they had Treifalicious intentions in mind. Maybe it was racial, they thought you'd be "easy" or something. But there is a difference between a friendly "Shabbat Shalom" and being invited up to an apartment or being told "he likes you." I think that we can be friendly without having sexual intentions. As far as your point on men being more forward, in my opinion the openness between the sexes is best not left to actually dating. I know this seems contradictory. I don't think people should flirt aimlessly or for Tachlis. Neither extreme. They should talk to be friendly. I think if they are interested, they should pursue actually getting set up with the person. Very simply, I think asking somebody out is based on very superficial things, but doing your research and making sure the spirtually important things are in place is very important. But I do think we should use the "friendly" interactions to get to know more of who is out there.
MH - If that is the case, she is a tzadekes. But I think that strikes at the core, of people realizing that not every guy girl interaction is about the two people getting married. It can just be friendly. Maybe I'll know somebody for her. This is an attitude I take on most dates. Just be open minded, and you don't stop talking to somebody because you aren't interested.
EC - I can understand the embarrassment, but I can't stress enough the fact that you should practice speaking to any guy the way you'd speak to a girl- just don't go back to his place. Truthfully, I think I want to go with your advice, just push a little more next time. I was at a wedding this past weekend, and it was mixed tables. But since I'm black hat, they put me with the BY girls. I don't think they were expecting that. They tried avoiding me, but I kept asking questions. They didn't fully warm up, but at least I never gave up.
BB - I agree. So I guess I'll keep flying around until I find her...
Bec - I look like a goat. If I'm taking their breath away, it's out of fear.
SG - They could be shy. Truthfully, not every airline passenger wants to talk, many want to sleep or watch a movie. But A) I was just talking about simple comments, not even conversation. B) I would think conversation would be more frum than reading the airline magazine, which is what she was doing. But of course, these girls are told not to talk to guys, and aren't told not to read the shtus in People magazine. The problem is that instead of educating them with Jewish values, we just tell them what to do and what not to do, so that when left to their own, these girls have no clue how to be frum in the world.
MS - Boruch Hashem.
Wow, people, I wish I had your problems. I fly to Denver about twice a year, and see young frum guys almost every time, but women like me are invisible to them or something... - Shiri
# posted by : February 06, 2006 12:36 PM
: February 06, 2006 12:36 PM
Shiri - sounds like you do have our problems, since they ignore you too. Maybe everyone hear should just coordinate our itineries and schedule a normal sociel blogger flight!
Josh: I could stop in Illinois, no prob ;-) I am not as observant as you are, but what wouldn't I do for such a sweet Pisces guy :))) - Shiri
# posted by : February 17, 2006 3:30 AM
: February 17, 2006 3:30 AM
Shiri - Whenever you're in the neighborhood, I'd be more than happy to entertain. You know how to reach me!
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