Monday, February 20, 2006
From the Mouths of Babes
I used to be such a nice boy. I was polite and kind. My speech was always respectful and deferential. Now, I'm obnoxious. I'm loud and attention grabbing. My humor is biting and condescending. What happened to me?
I was raised well by my parents. They taught me how to be helpful, not to resort to name calling. By high school, this was the centerpiece of my identity. In my yearbook, one classmate listed me as Most Admired Person, while two others noted that I'd make a great husband someday.
Of course, they both have since married other guys. Guys who weren't reserved and waiting to be addressed. And I realize that one of the reasons I've adapted my personality is that nice people don't have friends. Or as the saying goes, nice guys finish last.
I'm not truly a jerk. I still don't mean to hurt a fly. But with sarcasm in and politeness out, I've learned that people might recognize pure behavior, but they don't want to be friends with it. They want the edge, they want the attitude. And so I've adapted. You wouldn't even recognize my personality if you knew me from high school.
I still only want to help others, but experience has taught me that gruff tactics are the only way to get close enough to help. I suppose people find a certail realistic approachability to the frank humorist which they don't identify with the pure angelic type.
I just don't know if the lesson I've learned is the way it should be, or if the world would be warmer if people turned down the character roasting.
I was raised well by my parents. They taught me how to be helpful, not to resort to name calling. By high school, this was the centerpiece of my identity. In my yearbook, one classmate listed me as Most Admired Person, while two others noted that I'd make a great husband someday.
Of course, they both have since married other guys. Guys who weren't reserved and waiting to be addressed. And I realize that one of the reasons I've adapted my personality is that nice people don't have friends. Or as the saying goes, nice guys finish last.
I'm not truly a jerk. I still don't mean to hurt a fly. But with sarcasm in and politeness out, I've learned that people might recognize pure behavior, but they don't want to be friends with it. They want the edge, they want the attitude. And so I've adapted. You wouldn't even recognize my personality if you knew me from high school.
I still only want to help others, but experience has taught me that gruff tactics are the only way to get close enough to help. I suppose people find a certail realistic approachability to the frank humorist which they don't identify with the pure angelic type.
I just don't know if the lesson I've learned is the way it should be, or if the world would be warmer if people turned down the character roasting.
# posted by Josh : Monday, February 20, 2006
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It's like you wrote this post specifically for me, I try to be nice yet I'm not blessed with any true friends.
My cell phone rings quite often and surrounders might think I have a lot of friends but the truth is I'm only called when someone needs somethign from me,rarely just to see how I'm doing.
Maybe the key is to be less available for everbody.
My cell phone rings quite often and surrounders might think I have a lot of friends but the truth is I'm only called when someone needs somethign from me,rarely just to see how I'm doing.
Maybe the key is to be less available for everbody.
Tailor and Prag - Seems like you guys really agree with me. I'm glad this observation wasn't just my own. It seems like nice people are looked at as somebody to take advantage of, but not somebody worth giving back to. The popular always seem to have an aloofness to them. Maybe it is the idea that a goal too easily acheived isn't desirable.
Sara - That'll teach you to run to Elster for help in this department.
Mas- Maybe you're right - people view the nice person as a goodie-two-shoes. Maybe the angelicness comes off as too perfect and is perceived as being fake and patronizing. It's a shame that people see snarkiness (love the word!) as a form of bonding, when simple nice language would be such a preferable model.
AFB - I have definitely developed as well, and I suppose it must always have been in me in order for it to come out. But I see it as such a negative trait that I'd hate to think of it as the truth coming out rather than a mask I've drawn up to appease others.
Els - Of course nice people also find those to turn to and people they can call friends. But it is a shame that this isn't popular behavior, and that even as your being nice is recognized, people still don't value you and put you on the same pedestal as the cool crowd. Shouldn't you be the role model, being helpful and polite to all? Think of the "good ol' boy" joking around, mocking each other with their locker room banter - These are the guys ruling the corporate and political world. We're just paying dues.
Marc -True, but they attached wires to your chest while you sleep and run tests on you like a freak. I probably won't make the Seforim Sale Thursday night, since I'll be at a wedding. I may end up there after closing on Thursday. I may be there Sat. Night, but again, it would be after closing. Most likely, I'll be there at some point Sunday afternoon. How long will you be in NY for?
Sara - That'll teach you to run to Elster for help in this department.
Mas- Maybe you're right - people view the nice person as a goodie-two-shoes. Maybe the angelicness comes off as too perfect and is perceived as being fake and patronizing. It's a shame that people see snarkiness (love the word!) as a form of bonding, when simple nice language would be such a preferable model.
AFB - I have definitely developed as well, and I suppose it must always have been in me in order for it to come out. But I see it as such a negative trait that I'd hate to think of it as the truth coming out rather than a mask I've drawn up to appease others.
Els - Of course nice people also find those to turn to and people they can call friends. But it is a shame that this isn't popular behavior, and that even as your being nice is recognized, people still don't value you and put you on the same pedestal as the cool crowd. Shouldn't you be the role model, being helpful and polite to all? Think of the "good ol' boy" joking around, mocking each other with their locker room banter - These are the guys ruling the corporate and political world. We're just paying dues.
Marc -True, but they attached wires to your chest while you sleep and run tests on you like a freak. I probably won't make the Seforim Sale Thursday night, since I'll be at a wedding. I may end up there after closing on Thursday. I may be there Sat. Night, but again, it would be after closing. Most likely, I'll be there at some point Sunday afternoon. How long will you be in NY for?
Josh, I totally relate to this post. I feel like you just wrote about me. I often come across as intimidating or rude when in reality, I think I'm a really nice person (I'm not just saying that, people tell me that) but for me my outgoing, crazy self is really just a big cover-up. What shall we do......lifes tough. I believe we have to find the appropriate balance, between being cool and being nice -- It's tough, but I think you can do it!
as marc said, nice guys get married. granted, im not the typical girl - i was one of the only girls in my group of friends by the time i graduated high school - i am a bit more straight-forward/like to get dirty/know how to use power tools/love ice hockey/ish than most girls. I brought the PS2 into our home, not him. So Marc and i even each other out - he wouldn't hurt a fly, I aspire to work in politics - you get the idea.
Anyway, I don't think you have really become this obnoxious guy you describe, at least that isn't how I know you (though that isn't much) but first impression count, right? When i first met you before josh & sigalle's wedding, it was amid a lot of time "with the guys" and i remember being taken back by something you did, i think you held the door or something. It was really sweet. While I agree that sometimes you need to get a little dirty or make enough noise to get noticed/get close enough to make a difference, I think you overestimate how far you have strayed from being a nice guy.
And in a world of obnoxious guys, sometimes a truly nice guy is a nice break. Then again, I did marry a nice guy, so maybe i am biased.
Anyway, I don't think you have really become this obnoxious guy you describe, at least that isn't how I know you (though that isn't much) but first impression count, right? When i first met you before josh & sigalle's wedding, it was amid a lot of time "with the guys" and i remember being taken back by something you did, i think you held the door or something. It was really sweet. While I agree that sometimes you need to get a little dirty or make enough noise to get noticed/get close enough to make a difference, I think you overestimate how far you have strayed from being a nice guy.
And in a world of obnoxious guys, sometimes a truly nice guy is a nice break. Then again, I did marry a nice guy, so maybe i am biased.
Here is a revolutionary thought: just be true to yourself. Do what's right by you. Asserting yourself does not make you a jerk, and being nice wouldn't make you a boring person. There is nothing wrong at all with your essence or character; you simply need to tune your expression. No biggie, you can handle it. And if girls talk to you about their dramas with other guys or any other topic you don't much care about, just change topic. If that doesn't work, politely say "I am not at all interested in that, would you like to discuss anything else?" You are an equal participant in interaction, so you as well can enjoy it.
thanks for "entertainment" response in another post.
thanks for "entertainment" response in another post.
Shosh: you and others are mixing 2 very different things: true nature/character vs expression/manners. One could be a very soft-spoken evil person. Another could be a great, kind person with poor social skills.
One of my friends (who is a bit on the tough side herself) told me I'm sweet, but with a little edge so it's not too sweet. I guess this plays in to what you've been saying - people don't like it if you're too sweet. They think it's not genuine (even if it is) and I'm sure I've developed this "edge" over time.
Unfortunately, in our society, if you're too nice, people sometimes take advantage.
MH
Unfortunately, in our society, if you're too nice, people sometimes take advantage.
MH
Inexplicable perhaps--I'll try to be simple.
We biologically can't very easily change our personality, so-to-speak. We can change, however, whether or not to let our personality show through :) Does this make sense to you?
Be yourself, know what kind of values/virtues you want to believe in and present to others, and the rest will fall into place. In the end you have to ask yourself, "is what I'm doing really working for me?"
We biologically can't very easily change our personality, so-to-speak. We can change, however, whether or not to let our personality show through :) Does this make sense to you?
Be yourself, know what kind of values/virtues you want to believe in and present to others, and the rest will fall into place. In the end you have to ask yourself, "is what I'm doing really working for me?"
Josh- Hi! My computer's been misbehaving lately, sorry for the late comment. As soon as I read your comment, I knew I had to post. Personally, I've always been one of the "nice" people. (Notice I didn't say modest...) I justcould never countenance causing another person any pain. Of course, I'm human, and sometimes I do- and I hate myself whenever it might happen. But yeah, personalities evolve, and usually, we adapt to what gets us the results we need. I've always had friends who loved me for my "niceness"-for myself. So I've stayed that way. But I can see someone developing an edge if that helps them attain their goals. But you can't change you inner niceness, no matter what!! I think you've got a great heart -just from the little I know of you.
Oh, ad when it comes to nice guys finishing last, here's a story from my "criminal past": When I was thirteen and just starting to notice guys existed, I met HIM. A good-looking sixteen year old (ooooh, who looked at me like a little pest probably, but I fell in love with him-not because of his looks, but because, and I quote my younger self:"He's SO nice!!" His menschlekeit made me fall for him. He was courteous, gentlemanly, even to a little, annoying girl like me. (Plus, he discussed Torah passionately.- swoon!)For years afterward, even without ever talking to him again, I still 'loved' him, his kindness, his openess, his chesed...I'm still not 100% over him!
Sorry for the long tale, but my point is, nice guys do finish first! (at least for me)
Oh, ad when it comes to nice guys finishing last, here's a story from my "criminal past": When I was thirteen and just starting to notice guys existed, I met HIM. A good-looking sixteen year old (ooooh, who looked at me like a little pest probably, but I fell in love with him-not because of his looks, but because, and I quote my younger self:"He's SO nice!!" His menschlekeit made me fall for him. He was courteous, gentlemanly, even to a little, annoying girl like me. (Plus, he discussed Torah passionately.- swoon!)For years afterward, even without ever talking to him again, I still 'loved' him, his kindness, his openess, his chesed...I'm still not 100% over him!
Sorry for the long tale, but my point is, nice guys do finish first! (at least for me)
So i was reading for class, about how society is not made up just of "economic man" and i came upon thiese 2 sentences:
"The fact that we are cooperative means that nice guys so not always finish last. The reasoning that explains why nice guys do not always finish last also makes clear that neoclassical economics sometimes overrate the value of competition as a source of progress."
just thought i'd share that piece of knowledge from "Understanding Capitalism: Competition, Command and Change", pg.50.
"The fact that we are cooperative means that nice guys so not always finish last. The reasoning that explains why nice guys do not always finish last also makes clear that neoclassical economics sometimes overrate the value of competition as a source of progress."
just thought i'd share that piece of knowledge from "Understanding Capitalism: Competition, Command and Change", pg.50.
Josh -
I think this post proves what you said to your detractor on that last post, that you can't tell somebody's true personality from their blog. Because from the way you answered him, and from how you blog here and post elsewhere, the last thing most people would call you is loud, obnoxious, and condescending!
Come check out my blog, I think you'll enjoy...
I think this post proves what you said to your detractor on that last post, that you can't tell somebody's true personality from their blog. Because from the way you answered him, and from how you blog here and post elsewhere, the last thing most people would call you is loud, obnoxious, and condescending!
Come check out my blog, I think you'll enjoy...
IMM - I'm glad we're talking the same language. But I think there is a difference between coming across as rude and just being a good person who relies on a bullying approach to gaining popularity. I think people can still see you're a good person even as you act tough. Even in the world of jocularity there are still those recognized as friendly and those as jerks. But it's just strange that a naturally pleasant nature should be enrobed in such a grating exterior. But I wouldn't call it a cover up.
Carla - I wouldn't say I'm not a nice guy (although I wouldn't say I'm the model either). But instead of greeting somebody now and warmly saying, "Hey, nice haircut!" I'm more likely to say, "Hey, did you get run over by a lawn mower?" I think both would be recognized as showing that as I friend, I notice how they're doing. It's just strange that a) the latter approach seems to be more warmly received, and b) for better or worse, I've gravitated towards that approach over the years.
Shiri - I wouldn't disagree at all about just being yourself. If you want to be make people happy, and they respond to this kind of humor more than plain niceness, this is the way to approach them. But is it human nature to respond more to this attitude, or is a cultural thing? (For your knowledge, I have all comments emailed to me, so no matter how far back you comment, I'll see it- and eventually respond.)
Shosh - An idea well captured. I think sincerity is the key, both to playing gently or roughly. It's strange though that the sincerity of nice people is so suspect. According to your theory, I know why nice guys finish last. They're Canadien, ay.
Shiri - You've identified that my post deals with a dichotomy of the two layers of personality - the intent and the expression. It's just so odd that when the two aren't consistent - the two cases you mentioned - we are so responsive. But when a nice person acts nice or an evil person acts evil, we ignore both.
MH - I guess you must be pretty popular;) But aside from nice people being taken advantage of, are they even looked up to as leaders?
T - Ah, pushing buttons. Yes, that childish motivation does seem to relate. We get attention by not by asking basic questions, but by throwing a sarcastic comment. That certainly would explain a lot of this behavior. I also want to thank you for pointing out that there is nothing wrong with the nice guy who is there for the girl. My point (and yours) is not that the nice guy is being taken advantage of there, just that the girl overlooks the guy who really cares about her and instead dreams about the guy who is the cause of all this drama.
Yakki - For me, "being nice" means helping others. If they won't notice me, I can't accomplish my goal. So I adapt to the personality they respond to.
Okee - That was a great story. I guess there are a bunch of us on the periphery with a foot in the nice and edgy worlds. Although, it seems that your buttons aren't pushed by the toughness. Even from a young age. I'm impressed.
Carla - Wow, welcome the academics to my blog. That was a first. Where I would question the author is on his assumption of "Cooperative economics." I don't think that is true. We have a competitive environment, and our interactions are dictated by game theory. Which means we play off each other, so I guess in my disagreement, I see another reason why live with "poker faces."
PP - Thanks. I would agree that my toughness would be limited to my "outer layer," so I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't come off as a total jerk. I guess I have more work to do if I want to be cool!
Carla - I wouldn't say I'm not a nice guy (although I wouldn't say I'm the model either). But instead of greeting somebody now and warmly saying, "Hey, nice haircut!" I'm more likely to say, "Hey, did you get run over by a lawn mower?" I think both would be recognized as showing that as I friend, I notice how they're doing. It's just strange that a) the latter approach seems to be more warmly received, and b) for better or worse, I've gravitated towards that approach over the years.
Shiri - I wouldn't disagree at all about just being yourself. If you want to be make people happy, and they respond to this kind of humor more than plain niceness, this is the way to approach them. But is it human nature to respond more to this attitude, or is a cultural thing? (For your knowledge, I have all comments emailed to me, so no matter how far back you comment, I'll see it- and eventually respond.)
Shosh - An idea well captured. I think sincerity is the key, both to playing gently or roughly. It's strange though that the sincerity of nice people is so suspect. According to your theory, I know why nice guys finish last. They're Canadien, ay.
Shiri - You've identified that my post deals with a dichotomy of the two layers of personality - the intent and the expression. It's just so odd that when the two aren't consistent - the two cases you mentioned - we are so responsive. But when a nice person acts nice or an evil person acts evil, we ignore both.
MH - I guess you must be pretty popular;) But aside from nice people being taken advantage of, are they even looked up to as leaders?
T - Ah, pushing buttons. Yes, that childish motivation does seem to relate. We get attention by not by asking basic questions, but by throwing a sarcastic comment. That certainly would explain a lot of this behavior. I also want to thank you for pointing out that there is nothing wrong with the nice guy who is there for the girl. My point (and yours) is not that the nice guy is being taken advantage of there, just that the girl overlooks the guy who really cares about her and instead dreams about the guy who is the cause of all this drama.
Yakki - For me, "being nice" means helping others. If they won't notice me, I can't accomplish my goal. So I adapt to the personality they respond to.
Okee - That was a great story. I guess there are a bunch of us on the periphery with a foot in the nice and edgy worlds. Although, it seems that your buttons aren't pushed by the toughness. Even from a young age. I'm impressed.
Carla - Wow, welcome the academics to my blog. That was a first. Where I would question the author is on his assumption of "Cooperative economics." I don't think that is true. We have a competitive environment, and our interactions are dictated by game theory. Which means we play off each other, so I guess in my disagreement, I see another reason why live with "poker faces."
PP - Thanks. I would agree that my toughness would be limited to my "outer layer," so I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't come off as a total jerk. I guess I have more work to do if I want to be cool!
Josh, I have to say (without reading most of the other readers' comments) that I'm kind of surprised ... a little disappointed maybe? Nice is not "in?"
I dunno ... I tend to gravitate towards people who lack edge, who are pure ... truly wonderfully sincerely genuinely nice people, and those who would rather abandon their kindness, in favor of a more sharp, almost snappy personality, well I don't wnat to say I have no time for them. However, if any of my chavrusas or friends had exhibited such traits, I know I would most likely abandon them for purer, greener pastures.
I dunno ... I tend to gravitate towards people who lack edge, who are pure ... truly wonderfully sincerely genuinely nice people, and those who would rather abandon their kindness, in favor of a more sharp, almost snappy personality, well I don't wnat to say I have no time for them. However, if any of my chavrusas or friends had exhibited such traits, I know I would most likely abandon them for purer, greener pastures.
The saying goes like this:
"all the good girls want the bad boys". Maybe it is true, maybe not.
But in my opinion I like talking to people who have a deeper more meaningful outlook on life than to talking to the jerks of the world.
There is a difference of being hte nice guy wallflower or the nice guy whose goodness and smiles makes everyone want to be around him than being the loud obnoxious person who puts other people down to look good.
Im not saying that is who you are, but do you REALLY want to be the way you are now? Judging from the fact that you are reflecting on it, I'd say no. Find the balance.
"all the good girls want the bad boys". Maybe it is true, maybe not.
But in my opinion I like talking to people who have a deeper more meaningful outlook on life than to talking to the jerks of the world.
There is a difference of being hte nice guy wallflower or the nice guy whose goodness and smiles makes everyone want to be around him than being the loud obnoxious person who puts other people down to look good.
Im not saying that is who you are, but do you REALLY want to be the way you are now? Judging from the fact that you are reflecting on it, I'd say no. Find the balance.
Eshet: no, you can't say you're one of them. If you were, you wouldn't be doubting it ;-) -Sh.
# posted by 
: February 22, 2006 8:04 PM
: February 22, 2006 8:04 PM
E - I'm glad your type is out there. I just didn't expect that to come from Brooklyn.
FG - Obviously, everyone has their own preferences. And I don't think it is impossible to be good and popular. It is just unfortunately not the exterior favored in our culture. So no matter how butter soft your inside, you'll sell better if you come off tough on the outside. Everyone can choose how they want to appear. But we're social beings, and it's tough to choose between being yourself and being by yourself, to putting on a show and being a harder character.
EC - Can't say whether you're a witty natured soul, or whether you're attracted to them? I'd say you definitely are, but I can't know what you're attracted to!
Sh - Sometimes, no matter what we think of ourselves, we're shocked to hear how others perceive us!
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FG - Obviously, everyone has their own preferences. And I don't think it is impossible to be good and popular. It is just unfortunately not the exterior favored in our culture. So no matter how butter soft your inside, you'll sell better if you come off tough on the outside. Everyone can choose how they want to appear. But we're social beings, and it's tough to choose between being yourself and being by yourself, to putting on a show and being a harder character.
EC - Can't say whether you're a witty natured soul, or whether you're attracted to them? I'd say you definitely are, but I can't know what you're attracted to!
Sh - Sometimes, no matter what we think of ourselves, we're shocked to hear how others perceive us!
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