Monday, March 20, 2006
Bina and Daas...
I've always been an admirer of Chabad-Lubavitch. I've never let myself get dragged into the whole anti-Chabad, messianic disputes. But I recently journeyed into the core of the Lubavitch blog-world, courtesy of Chanie. And what I found amazed me.
I've always known Chabad through the emissaries (shluchim) they send out to communities. Through these interactions, I've always viewed Chabad people as very open-minded, worldly people, who've successfully combined their traditional world with an ability to relate to others all around them. But the window from the blog-world has shown me another world altogether, a world not separated by space it seems, but merely shaded from the view of outsiders like myself.
I'm not talking about the Rebbe is Moshiach crowd. Writing that off to isolated splinter groups still doesn't account for all of the odd practices considered common within the mainstream Lubavitch community. Chanie put together a quiz on her blog, and a number of the questions left me so puzzled, I couldn't understand where they were coming from.
Some examples -
The informal poll claims to determine whether you're Chassidishe. However, it seems that it actually identifies a Chabbadnik, as most of the criteria wouldn't identify a Chassid, neither in the Mishnaic or Baal Shem Tov sense.
Second, the poll asks whether participants participate in Farbrengens or have a Mashpia. These seem like nice high school terms, but I'm not sure why they would make somebody a better Chassid. They aren't Jewish commandments, and it would seem that somebody could be a great Chabadnik too through other channels.
Third, the quiz assumes that a Chassid should memorize Tanya, read rambam, learn the Rebbes sichos (addresses), and say Chitas (Chumash, Tehillim, and Tanya). Now these could be quirks of Chabad. Every group of Chassidim have their own favorite books. It just seems interesting that the wrote reading of specific works is so important. I understand if Chabad people find Tanya inspiring and educational, but again shouldn't learning anything make you a better Chassid?
Finally, Chanie asks how often do you write a letter to the Rebbe, and do you think the Rebbe is proud of you. Chanie is not a Rebbe is Moshiach person (at least I think), and I don't think that these views of the Rebbe as a personal mentor make you a heretic. But judging people's level based on their connection to a dead person? That sounds anti-productive to me. I have no problem if anybody finds inspiration in an historical character. It may seem a little weird if they communicate regularly with a person who is no longer with us. But it reaches a whole new level when such a relationship is a community standard of a good Chassid vs. a bad Chassid. This aspect is something very hard for me to accept.
Chanie is pretty mainstream Lubavitch. And even if she doesn't represent everyone out there, it is still enlightening to see even this one perspective. But yet I just can't understand how a core group so isolated from the normative reality of the frum world could hope to impact scattered Jewish souls. I'm not talking about the basic Misnaged vs. Chassid debate either. I expect Chassidim to be more ghettoed and rebbe oriented. I'm only frum because of Lubavitch. But is this normal?
I've always known Chabad through the emissaries (shluchim) they send out to communities. Through these interactions, I've always viewed Chabad people as very open-minded, worldly people, who've successfully combined their traditional world with an ability to relate to others all around them. But the window from the blog-world has shown me another world altogether, a world not separated by space it seems, but merely shaded from the view of outsiders like myself.
I'm not talking about the Rebbe is Moshiach crowd. Writing that off to isolated splinter groups still doesn't account for all of the odd practices considered common within the mainstream Lubavitch community. Chanie put together a quiz on her blog, and a number of the questions left me so puzzled, I couldn't understand where they were coming from.
Some examples -
The informal poll claims to determine whether you're Chassidishe. However, it seems that it actually identifies a Chabbadnik, as most of the criteria wouldn't identify a Chassid, neither in the Mishnaic or Baal Shem Tov sense.
Second, the poll asks whether participants participate in Farbrengens or have a Mashpia. These seem like nice high school terms, but I'm not sure why they would make somebody a better Chassid. They aren't Jewish commandments, and it would seem that somebody could be a great Chabadnik too through other channels.
Third, the quiz assumes that a Chassid should memorize Tanya, read rambam, learn the Rebbes sichos (addresses), and say Chitas (Chumash, Tehillim, and Tanya). Now these could be quirks of Chabad. Every group of Chassidim have their own favorite books. It just seems interesting that the wrote reading of specific works is so important. I understand if Chabad people find Tanya inspiring and educational, but again shouldn't learning anything make you a better Chassid?
Finally, Chanie asks how often do you write a letter to the Rebbe, and do you think the Rebbe is proud of you. Chanie is not a Rebbe is Moshiach person (at least I think), and I don't think that these views of the Rebbe as a personal mentor make you a heretic. But judging people's level based on their connection to a dead person? That sounds anti-productive to me. I have no problem if anybody finds inspiration in an historical character. It may seem a little weird if they communicate regularly with a person who is no longer with us. But it reaches a whole new level when such a relationship is a community standard of a good Chassid vs. a bad Chassid. This aspect is something very hard for me to accept.
Chanie is pretty mainstream Lubavitch. And even if she doesn't represent everyone out there, it is still enlightening to see even this one perspective. But yet I just can't understand how a core group so isolated from the normative reality of the frum world could hope to impact scattered Jewish souls. I'm not talking about the basic Misnaged vs. Chassid debate either. I expect Chassidim to be more ghettoed and rebbe oriented. I'm only frum because of Lubavitch. But is this normal?
# posted by Josh : Monday, March 20, 2006
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"I've always been an admirer of Chabad-Lubavitch."
Ditto (no matter what Ali tells you).
"I've never let myself get dragged into the whole anti-Chabad, messianic disputes."
I have, but sometimes I seriously regret it because it makes me feel dirty.
BUT
Regarding your whole story and the quiz -
"I expect Chassidim to be more ghettoed and rebbe oriented. ... But is this normal?"
ABSOLUTELY NOT
Ditto (no matter what Ali tells you).
"I've never let myself get dragged into the whole anti-Chabad, messianic disputes."
I have, but sometimes I seriously regret it because it makes me feel dirty.
BUT
Regarding your whole story and the quiz -
"I expect Chassidim to be more ghettoed and rebbe oriented. ... But is this normal?"
ABSOLUTELY NOT
This is an interesting question. I'm not sure I exactly understand, but I have some thoughts on the Lubavitch issue.
My husband is close to a Lubavitch rabbi (which you no doubt witnessed at our chassunah). He and his wife are wonderful people and do a tremendous amount to bring yiddishkeit to our little community here on the west coast. But, I find myself wondering (especially since they will likely be the only day school in town when our kids reach school-age, IYH) where the Rebbe fits into their picture. Do they admire his life and mission and feel passionately enough about it to dedicate their lives to it? Or, is there another motivation?
I'm comfortable with the former, but perhaps not the latter.
My CAN$0.02.
My husband is close to a Lubavitch rabbi (which you no doubt witnessed at our chassunah). He and his wife are wonderful people and do a tremendous amount to bring yiddishkeit to our little community here on the west coast. But, I find myself wondering (especially since they will likely be the only day school in town when our kids reach school-age, IYH) where the Rebbe fits into their picture. Do they admire his life and mission and feel passionately enough about it to dedicate their lives to it? Or, is there another motivation?
I'm comfortable with the former, but perhaps not the latter.
My CAN$0.02.
I grew up in a Chabad community I memorized Tanya , learned the Rebbes Sichos every Shabbos, learned chitas everyday... the whole deal. And yet, I was an outcast. What made the other girls more "chassidish?" Probably the fact that their fathers were Shluchim. That's about it. Chabad is great in their outreach, very few other organizations even come close to compare to them. However, when it comes to understanding the outside world and portraying themselves to the public, they are seriously lacking. From my experiences, I believe that Chabad wants to make unaffiliated Jews not more affiliated, not frum, but rather, Lubavitch Chassidim. But according to the world they live in, that means all of the "gashmius" things like memorizing tanya. What about respect, consideration, sincerity. Where does that come in? If you are frum but not Lubavitch there is an automatic cold feeling.(At least I felt it.)
Don't get me wrong, I really respect Chabad. They helped my family in more ways than one can imagine and I will forever be grateful. But someone needs to explain to Chani and others like her, that Chassidish isn't just what you do or how much you do. But its a feeling, a sincerity and belief for the sect. A commitment to Judaism and certain philosophies.
Don't get me wrong, I really respect Chabad. They helped my family in more ways than one can imagine and I will forever be grateful. But someone needs to explain to Chani and others like her, that Chassidish isn't just what you do or how much you do. But its a feeling, a sincerity and belief for the sect. A commitment to Judaism and certain philosophies.
# posted by 
: March 22, 2006 4:04 PM
: March 22, 2006 4:04 PM
So I just took the quiz. If her comments at the end of the quiz are sincere, then I have to disagree with you. I think she must be a "Rebbe is Mashiach" person.
However, there is the possibility that she is being sarcastic, which I hope, because the comments are waaaay off the deep end. In that case she is likely not a "Rebbe is Mashiach" person.
According to our quiz results, Ali is "hoping 2 be a chassid" and I am "an unrevealed chassid".
Whatever those two judgments mean, it's the comments that followed that threw me, particularly Ali's - she has a lot of work to do - and mine - I should try to do something the Rebbe wants.
Um, I'm sorry, but I live my life trying to do what G-d wants, and occasionally what some Gedolim and/or other people I admire would want. But I never live my life trying to do something that someone who isn't living wants, or something that someone who doesn't know of my existence (alive or dead) wants.
However, there is the possibility that she is being sarcastic, which I hope, because the comments are waaaay off the deep end. In that case she is likely not a "Rebbe is Mashiach" person.
According to our quiz results, Ali is "hoping 2 be a chassid" and I am "an unrevealed chassid".
Whatever those two judgments mean, it's the comments that followed that threw me, particularly Ali's - she has a lot of work to do - and mine - I should try to do something the Rebbe wants.
Um, I'm sorry, but I live my life trying to do what G-d wants, and occasionally what some Gedolim and/or other people I admire would want. But I never live my life trying to do something that someone who isn't living wants, or something that someone who doesn't know of my existence (alive or dead) wants.
Seth, just in regards to the end of your comment, even though I agree with your thinking, I've decided to talk out the chossid's side on this one. See what you think:
In Tanya it is explained that in each generation there is a gadol who has a neshama klallis. The first one was Adam, then Avraham, Yitchak, etc. all the way down through the line of Dovid to the rebbe of each generation. A neshama Klallis is exactly what it sounds like: An inclusive, complete soul that holds every soul within it. Only one very great tzaddik in each generation has this immense responsibility and it is his job to give chizuk, strength, to every neshama of that generation. The neshama klallis feels what each neshama feels, cares about ever single one, and lends strength to each individual. The neshama klallis absorbs the mistakes of each one, and lends a unity to our nation.
So, it would seem that not only does the rebbe know of you, but has helped you out without your knowing it.
Still, it is debateable whether the rebbe, being dead, can still be a neshama klallis. I tend to think that dying puts him out of the running. Of course, I feel that way about him being moshiach, too.
So, what do you think??
In Tanya it is explained that in each generation there is a gadol who has a neshama klallis. The first one was Adam, then Avraham, Yitchak, etc. all the way down through the line of Dovid to the rebbe of each generation. A neshama Klallis is exactly what it sounds like: An inclusive, complete soul that holds every soul within it. Only one very great tzaddik in each generation has this immense responsibility and it is his job to give chizuk, strength, to every neshama of that generation. The neshama klallis feels what each neshama feels, cares about ever single one, and lends strength to each individual. The neshama klallis absorbs the mistakes of each one, and lends a unity to our nation.
So, it would seem that not only does the rebbe know of you, but has helped you out without your knowing it.
Still, it is debateable whether the rebbe, being dead, can still be a neshama klallis. I tend to think that dying puts him out of the running. Of course, I feel that way about him being moshiach, too.
So, what do you think??
k, so u brought out many good points
firstly, you are right, i should not have titled it the chassidishe test, it should have been more along the chabad lines.
but about the farbrengen and mashpia thing, yes it is stressed in high school, but it is not exclusively for high school.at a farbrengen, you get a chance to recharge your batteries, so to speak, to an extent.and mashpia was a bakasha nafshis that the rebbe asked of every single chassid...and he said it was a bakasha nafshis, and even moe than that, he just could not find the right word. so it is not just a high school thing.
third- learning anything does make u a better chassid. when u learn the rebbes sichos, and maamarinm you are connecting with the innermost aspect of the rebbes neshama. since the rebbe is the yechida of all of klall yisrael, connecting with his neshama, aka connecting with him, automatically recharges you.
the thing with chitas and rambam-another horaa from the rebbe- actually 3, one for chumash, tehillim, and tanya, another for hayom yom, and another for rambam
the rebbe also stressed many times that everyone should memorize some tanya, in order that he should be able to think of it and recite it no matter where he is. hayom yom discusses this one a lot, but i dont know the date. about hiskashrus and sichos, it is for chof daled sivan. also there was one in adar, i forget which one, but IY"H ill post the hiskahrus stuff on my blog
at any rate, that is what i have to say for he first half of what you wrote. i hope im giving u a postive view of what lub represents, if im your window. about the lst part, ill address it later,IY"H. it takes a bissel more thinking.
firstly, you are right, i should not have titled it the chassidishe test, it should have been more along the chabad lines.
but about the farbrengen and mashpia thing, yes it is stressed in high school, but it is not exclusively for high school.at a farbrengen, you get a chance to recharge your batteries, so to speak, to an extent.and mashpia was a bakasha nafshis that the rebbe asked of every single chassid...and he said it was a bakasha nafshis, and even moe than that, he just could not find the right word. so it is not just a high school thing.
third- learning anything does make u a better chassid. when u learn the rebbes sichos, and maamarinm you are connecting with the innermost aspect of the rebbes neshama. since the rebbe is the yechida of all of klall yisrael, connecting with his neshama, aka connecting with him, automatically recharges you.
the thing with chitas and rambam-another horaa from the rebbe- actually 3, one for chumash, tehillim, and tanya, another for hayom yom, and another for rambam
the rebbe also stressed many times that everyone should memorize some tanya, in order that he should be able to think of it and recite it no matter where he is. hayom yom discusses this one a lot, but i dont know the date. about hiskashrus and sichos, it is for chof daled sivan. also there was one in adar, i forget which one, but IY"H ill post the hiskahrus stuff on my blog
at any rate, that is what i have to say for he first half of what you wrote. i hope im giving u a postive view of what lub represents, if im your window. about the lst part, ill address it later,IY"H. it takes a bissel more thinking.
not answering the second part now, cuz i gtg, but i found u the hayom yoms i was talking about. check my blog, its the newest post for today (3 posts today!!!!)
A couple comments (first post, woot!): First, I've had extensive experience with Chabad as Montreal is a big chabad town, and I love Chabad people. It could be because many of them are baalei tshuvah and hence are very open and therefore willing to accept any Jew, which is Chabad's strength in being mekarev people. The problem is that I've seen too often Chabad being a gashmius thing where it's all about the fabrengens and whatnot and less about the feelings related to chassidus and it's their main problem. I would be remiss if I didn't use the word "cultish" but am hesitant to do so because of the connotations related to it. It's just too many people getting caught up in a culture rather than a religious. If that leads to more then great, but often it doesn't and you have people who are doing wildly contradictory things under the guise of Chabad (not to say that this doesn't happen in other sects as well).
What you missed in the whole "rebbe is mashiach" thing is that yes, the majority chabadniks believe the rebbe is mashiach to some degree or another, which is not so much of a problem. What is wrong are those who believe that the rebbe is still alive BECAUSE he's mashiach. That's wrong and totally against halacha. I can believe a dead man is coming back as mashiach, but I can't believe that a dead man "thinks of me" or that he will actually read a fax I sent him.
On a seperate note, when I was working as a mashgiach in a restaurant we'd often have chabadniks asking where our shechita was from. I know for a fact that there's one reason and one reason alone that chabad shechita exists (I have this on authority from the Rabbis of at least 2 hashgachot) and that is in order to give a chabad man a job (my father says that there is a difference, the chabad shochet learns taanya; too true). I asked a chabad rabbi once what the difference is and he replyed (and I paraphrase): "A chabad shochet has a long beard and since it's known that someone with a longer beard has more yirat shamaim, the shechita of a chabad shochet is more trustworthy." If that's what makes something kosher, and not the letter of halacha as I've had to learn to be a qualified (accepted by the OU, the MK (Montreal Kosher) and the Vaad of Westchester), then remind me never to eat any meat ever again because I just can't be certain of the yirat shamaim of the shochet. I could go on, but here is where I get fairly frustrated so: end.
What you missed in the whole "rebbe is mashiach" thing is that yes, the majority chabadniks believe the rebbe is mashiach to some degree or another, which is not so much of a problem. What is wrong are those who believe that the rebbe is still alive BECAUSE he's mashiach. That's wrong and totally against halacha. I can believe a dead man is coming back as mashiach, but I can't believe that a dead man "thinks of me" or that he will actually read a fax I sent him.
On a seperate note, when I was working as a mashgiach in a restaurant we'd often have chabadniks asking where our shechita was from. I know for a fact that there's one reason and one reason alone that chabad shechita exists (I have this on authority from the Rabbis of at least 2 hashgachot) and that is in order to give a chabad man a job (my father says that there is a difference, the chabad shochet learns taanya; too true). I asked a chabad rabbi once what the difference is and he replyed (and I paraphrase): "A chabad shochet has a long beard and since it's known that someone with a longer beard has more yirat shamaim, the shechita of a chabad shochet is more trustworthy." If that's what makes something kosher, and not the letter of halacha as I've had to learn to be a qualified (accepted by the OU, the MK (Montreal Kosher) and the Vaad of Westchester), then remind me never to eat any meat ever again because I just can't be certain of the yirat shamaim of the shochet. I could go on, but here is where I get fairly frustrated so: end.
Sara, in addition to my problems with the premises of the comments at the end of the quiz, I also had the same general problem with the whole thing that Josh seemed to have, and which Chanie has since addressed in one of her comments above.
The quiz suggests that to be a good Chassid you have to do a whole host of things that only a Chabadnik would do. Lubavitch does not corner the market on Chassidus, and I think there is a general culture within Chabad that leads Lubavitchers to associate Chassidus with the Rebbe's teachings.
Not being a Chassid (in the "Ba'al Shem Tov sense" - as Josh puts it, as opposed to "the Mishnaic sense") gives me the ability as an "outsider" to see things from a broader perspective. In my observations and conversations with many people of many backgrounds, I have noticed an interesting thing. I think there are a lot of people out there who don't identify Chabad with Chassidus at all.
This may come as a shock to any Lubavitchers reading this, but a lot of people - Chassidishe, non-Chassidishe, Orthodox, non-Orthodox, Jewish, and even non-Jewish - think that Lubavitch is a sect of Orthodox Judaism or Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, but that it is distinct from "Hassidic" Judaism, which they see as a separate and distinct sect of either Orthodoxy or Ultra-Orthodoxy itself.
(By the way, I am generally very particular about my choice of language, and I want to be clear that I am using the terms above just as a function of simplicity.)
The quiz suggests that to be a good Chassid you have to do a whole host of things that only a Chabadnik would do. Lubavitch does not corner the market on Chassidus, and I think there is a general culture within Chabad that leads Lubavitchers to associate Chassidus with the Rebbe's teachings.
Not being a Chassid (in the "Ba'al Shem Tov sense" - as Josh puts it, as opposed to "the Mishnaic sense") gives me the ability as an "outsider" to see things from a broader perspective. In my observations and conversations with many people of many backgrounds, I have noticed an interesting thing. I think there are a lot of people out there who don't identify Chabad with Chassidus at all.
This may come as a shock to any Lubavitchers reading this, but a lot of people - Chassidishe, non-Chassidishe, Orthodox, non-Orthodox, Jewish, and even non-Jewish - think that Lubavitch is a sect of Orthodox Judaism or Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, but that it is distinct from "Hassidic" Judaism, which they see as a separate and distinct sect of either Orthodoxy or Ultra-Orthodoxy itself.
(By the way, I am generally very particular about my choice of language, and I want to be clear that I am using the terms above just as a function of simplicity.)
Hey DYS (By the way, are you the same Dudie who used to hang out on Morg 2?), I just have a quick comment on your comment.
"What you missed in the whole "rebbe is mashiach" thing is that yes, the majority chabadniks believe the rebbe is mashiach to some degree or another, which is not so much of a problem. What is wrong are those who believe that the rebbe is still alive BECAUSE he's mashiach. That's wrong and totally against halacha. I can believe a dead man is coming back as mashiach, but I can't believe that a dead man "thinks of me" or that he will actually read a fax I sent him."
I think I have less of a problem with people thinking the Rebbe is still alive than I have with people thinking he will come back to life as Mashiach. That is one of the most problematic premises of that other, more mainstream (in the eyes of the West) religion. For us, Mashiach has to fulfill his mission in his (first) lifetime. By that I mean that someone cannot die and come back as Mashiach. Yes, there is resurrection in Judaism, but everything that I've learned about it tells me that IF it's a physical state (which is a big Machlokes) it is still associated with 'Olam Haba, which is something that comes about sometime after Mashiach has redeemed us (when, how, and where is also a subject of heated Machlokes). But the basic idea is that once a person dies, his ability to directly affect the course of human history ends.
If someone actually thinks the Rebbe is still alive, I can just shrug it off as foolishness, whereas if someone thinks the Rebbe is coming back as Mashiach, I have to wrestle with the issue of whether that person can Halachically be trusted for his Kashrus and 'Eidus. You have to wonder if the person is doing his Mitzvos LeShem Shamayim or LeShem HaRebbe MiLubavitch. This is a BIG deal.
"What you missed in the whole "rebbe is mashiach" thing is that yes, the majority chabadniks believe the rebbe is mashiach to some degree or another, which is not so much of a problem. What is wrong are those who believe that the rebbe is still alive BECAUSE he's mashiach. That's wrong and totally against halacha. I can believe a dead man is coming back as mashiach, but I can't believe that a dead man "thinks of me" or that he will actually read a fax I sent him."
I think I have less of a problem with people thinking the Rebbe is still alive than I have with people thinking he will come back to life as Mashiach. That is one of the most problematic premises of that other, more mainstream (in the eyes of the West) religion. For us, Mashiach has to fulfill his mission in his (first) lifetime. By that I mean that someone cannot die and come back as Mashiach. Yes, there is resurrection in Judaism, but everything that I've learned about it tells me that IF it's a physical state (which is a big Machlokes) it is still associated with 'Olam Haba, which is something that comes about sometime after Mashiach has redeemed us (when, how, and where is also a subject of heated Machlokes). But the basic idea is that once a person dies, his ability to directly affect the course of human history ends.
If someone actually thinks the Rebbe is still alive, I can just shrug it off as foolishness, whereas if someone thinks the Rebbe is coming back as Mashiach, I have to wrestle with the issue of whether that person can Halachically be trusted for his Kashrus and 'Eidus. You have to wonder if the person is doing his Mitzvos LeShem Shamayim or LeShem HaRebbe MiLubavitch. This is a BIG deal.
youre right, it is a big deal, which is why it took me so long to warm up to lubavitch....and hopefully i fwill find the words with which to explain it properly to you.
as for the rest of the post, josh, see my blog.
as for the rest of the post, josh, see my blog.
chanie, i don't know your background or anything, but as a 'fellow' lubavitcher i think your choice of questions was a bit on the superficial side...
# posted by : March 25, 2006 10:56 PM
: March 25, 2006 10:56 PM
AS - That is part of the problem - recognizing all the positive they have added to our lives, but at the same time wondering if we fit in to their vision.
R - You spoke from personal experience in a genuine way that I couldn't. You definitely portray that conundrum, where the people who were mekarev you don't respect you if you don't end up just like them. I wonder if it is an intrinsic part of the Chassidic philosophy, ie, if you believe that all of these specific trappings of Chabad are based in divine connections, then those who deny them aren't as frum, or if it essentially boils down to baseless cliqueness, undesirable but very human.
Seth - I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt that way when they took the quiz. I also got the feeling that Chabad places more emphasis on coming close to the Rebbe instead of coming close to Gd. Obviously, I would argue that the Rebbe only wanted to be used as an inspiration for the latter. And I am curious to have Chanie state whether she believes the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Sara - Thanks for some of that background into the debate. I won't argue on the underpinnings of Chassidus, but it does seem that even if you believe that the Rebbe is a Neshama Klalis, he may be connected to you and care about you, but it wouldn't be something that you could accomplish by writing a letter to him that he wouldn't answer. I understand that a neshoma klalis would be able to provide a person with personalized guidance, but that only helps if he responds.
DYS - As far as what is more problematic, believing the Rebbe is alive or Moshiach, I tend to belong to the Moshiach camp being more heretical. The former are just stupid.
R - You spoke from personal experience in a genuine way that I couldn't. You definitely portray that conundrum, where the people who were mekarev you don't respect you if you don't end up just like them. I wonder if it is an intrinsic part of the Chassidic philosophy, ie, if you believe that all of these specific trappings of Chabad are based in divine connections, then those who deny them aren't as frum, or if it essentially boils down to baseless cliqueness, undesirable but very human.
Seth - I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt that way when they took the quiz. I also got the feeling that Chabad places more emphasis on coming close to the Rebbe instead of coming close to Gd. Obviously, I would argue that the Rebbe only wanted to be used as an inspiration for the latter. And I am curious to have Chanie state whether she believes the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Sara - Thanks for some of that background into the debate. I won't argue on the underpinnings of Chassidus, but it does seem that even if you believe that the Rebbe is a Neshama Klalis, he may be connected to you and care about you, but it wouldn't be something that you could accomplish by writing a letter to him that he wouldn't answer. I understand that a neshoma klalis would be able to provide a person with personalized guidance, but that only helps if he responds.
DYS - As far as what is more problematic, believing the Rebbe is alive or Moshiach, I tend to belong to the Moshiach camp being more heretical. The former are just stupid.
Chanie - a whole comment just for you. I want to start by thanking you for recognizing that my intent wasn't to criticize you in any way. I find your viewpoint and spiritual energy so contagious I can't help but want to learn from you. Also, I want to thank you for taking the time to look up all the relevant sources. I always knew that all these things that define Chabad would have a source in the Rebbe's writings. But all your sources reinforce one of my questions. The Rebbe's writings are so clear, and full of wisdom. But you'll notice that in the post to my title, that is exactly the aspect of Chab"ad that it seems is lacking. For example, the Rebbe wanted everyone to memorize Tanya so that they would never have to go without growing spiritually. Instead, this has been taken to encourage brainless, rote memorizing of a hashkafic work that is useless if not analyzed. Another example, the Rebbe serving as a central source of inspiration is very real, as his writing talk about the spiritual underspinnings of the reasons for Hiskashrus. However, bonding to the Rebbe would mean going to the Rebbe for personal guidance. Using his books like a Ouija board wouldn't fall into his original intentions.
As far as "taking so long to warm up to Lubavitch," part of my issue is I don't understand why one would have to warm up to a specific approach to Judaism. The way I see it, the goal is to come closer to Gd. Lubavitch beliefs are one way to do that. If one finds it helpful, then there is nothing wrong with following it. But if weren't warming up to it, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just pursue another avenue of growth.
As far as your actual quiz, I would disagree with Anon. Regardless of whether the term Chassidish is used correctly (if that is how it is used in the Lubavitch world, then it is only fair to allow you to use your own terminology), I think the criteria you used for your questions are relevant. Not because they are better identifiers of whether you're a more holy Chassid, but because they correctly portray what a typical Lubavitch girl perceives as being the measures of importance. In all different religious communities the trees are mistaken for the forest; you successfully identified those traits overly emphasized in yours. The fact that on your blog and other Lubablogs the definition of Chassidish, and how that term is used to label specific people, is often debated, shows how important exploring their usage is. Anon, like it or not, these are what is being used as a measuring stick for Chabad children, and while they may be wrong, Chanie as at least allowed me to see where the Rebbe's teachings have been perverted.
Everyone's input has allowed me to refine my questions on Lubavitch norms to the following two issues:
1) Have the Chassidim overly emphasized the Rebbe's teachings as means unto themselves, turning them into Mitzvos, rather than merely a means to acheive Gdliness? Has going to a Farbrengen become a Chiyuv rather than just another outlet unique to Chassidim for connecting to the divine?
2) Is the Lubavitch community less accepting of alternative derachim to Avodas Hashem then they are of people who haven't found one yet at all? Do they paradoxically show more love for and acceptance of a not yet frum Jew than a Lubavitch girl who doesn't read Tanya religiously?
As far as "taking so long to warm up to Lubavitch," part of my issue is I don't understand why one would have to warm up to a specific approach to Judaism. The way I see it, the goal is to come closer to Gd. Lubavitch beliefs are one way to do that. If one finds it helpful, then there is nothing wrong with following it. But if weren't warming up to it, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just pursue another avenue of growth.
As far as your actual quiz, I would disagree with Anon. Regardless of whether the term Chassidish is used correctly (if that is how it is used in the Lubavitch world, then it is only fair to allow you to use your own terminology), I think the criteria you used for your questions are relevant. Not because they are better identifiers of whether you're a more holy Chassid, but because they correctly portray what a typical Lubavitch girl perceives as being the measures of importance. In all different religious communities the trees are mistaken for the forest; you successfully identified those traits overly emphasized in yours. The fact that on your blog and other Lubablogs the definition of Chassidish, and how that term is used to label specific people, is often debated, shows how important exploring their usage is. Anon, like it or not, these are what is being used as a measuring stick for Chabad children, and while they may be wrong, Chanie as at least allowed me to see where the Rebbe's teachings have been perverted.
Everyone's input has allowed me to refine my questions on Lubavitch norms to the following two issues:
1) Have the Chassidim overly emphasized the Rebbe's teachings as means unto themselves, turning them into Mitzvos, rather than merely a means to acheive Gdliness? Has going to a Farbrengen become a Chiyuv rather than just another outlet unique to Chassidim for connecting to the divine?
2) Is the Lubavitch community less accepting of alternative derachim to Avodas Hashem then they are of people who haven't found one yet at all? Do they paradoxically show more love for and acceptance of a not yet frum Jew than a Lubavitch girl who doesn't read Tanya religiously?
Josh, we've been friends for a while. Thinking back on our many discussions about life and Hashkafah, I remember many instances in which our ideas were very much in sync and complimentary to one another. Right now I'm both awed and a little bit frightened at the similarities in our views on this. Uncanny. We should've been Chavrusas back in the day.
Wow. I'm amazed to see how many ppl feel strongly about this. I have a couple of things to say about all this. To give you a drop of backgroung, I grew up Lubavitch, and I still identify myself as one, but I haven't lived in the mainstream for a while so I don't necessarily represent the mainstream Lubavitch view.
Okay. First of all, Lubavitch is NOT a cult. It's true that we are very leader oriented, passionately so, but that leader doesn't lie to us, manipulate us, and use us for his own personal gain. Chassidus as a movement has always been about following a leader, the Rebbe. This is exactly what 'Mitnagdim' had against them back in the day. Being all about a leader is very 'normal' in the Chassidic world. It's just a little trickier now since the Rebbe is not alive.
Second, there are Halachic authorities that hold that Mashiach can be Min Hameisim, from the dead. The Rambam clearly doesn't hold this way and he's the one who talked about the 'requirements' for a mashiach. So lubavichers who believe the rebbe is mashiach are not heretics. They are NOT breaking halachah.
To answer Josh's questions:
1) a chassid in the mishna is one who does "lifnim mishuras hadin", beyond the letter of the law. keeping the mitzvos, doing what is a chiyuv, does not make you a chassid, it makes you a frum Jew. Chassidim are looking to go beyond that, ro do more than is required, to become more spiritually involved. the things Chani has enumerated are davka not a chiyuv, they are extra things the Lubavitcher Rebbe has told us will bring us even closer to G-d and as his followers, we believe him. So, we try to do even those things that are not required.
2)I personally think Chabad is not as accepting of other legitimate derachim as it should be. However, I think this is more a clique type thing than a shitah. We do not love ppl who are not frum more than the lubavitcher who doesn't learn Tanya. I think those "outcasts" only feel that way, because they themselves feel inadequate. some, especially teens, cultivate that feeling and turn it into their identity. It is not necessarily a real reflection of the way other ppl feel about them. There is also a substantial differnece between someone who does something wrong because they don't know better and someone who does knows the rules and breaks them anyway.
Okay. Deep breath. I think I'm done now.
-Rebel w/o a Clue
Okay. First of all, Lubavitch is NOT a cult. It's true that we are very leader oriented, passionately so, but that leader doesn't lie to us, manipulate us, and use us for his own personal gain. Chassidus as a movement has always been about following a leader, the Rebbe. This is exactly what 'Mitnagdim' had against them back in the day. Being all about a leader is very 'normal' in the Chassidic world. It's just a little trickier now since the Rebbe is not alive.
Second, there are Halachic authorities that hold that Mashiach can be Min Hameisim, from the dead. The Rambam clearly doesn't hold this way and he's the one who talked about the 'requirements' for a mashiach. So lubavichers who believe the rebbe is mashiach are not heretics. They are NOT breaking halachah.
To answer Josh's questions:
1) a chassid in the mishna is one who does "lifnim mishuras hadin", beyond the letter of the law. keeping the mitzvos, doing what is a chiyuv, does not make you a chassid, it makes you a frum Jew. Chassidim are looking to go beyond that, ro do more than is required, to become more spiritually involved. the things Chani has enumerated are davka not a chiyuv, they are extra things the Lubavitcher Rebbe has told us will bring us even closer to G-d and as his followers, we believe him. So, we try to do even those things that are not required.
2)I personally think Chabad is not as accepting of other legitimate derachim as it should be. However, I think this is more a clique type thing than a shitah. We do not love ppl who are not frum more than the lubavitcher who doesn't learn Tanya. I think those "outcasts" only feel that way, because they themselves feel inadequate. some, especially teens, cultivate that feeling and turn it into their identity. It is not necessarily a real reflection of the way other ppl feel about them. There is also a substantial differnece between someone who does something wrong because they don't know better and someone who does knows the rules and breaks them anyway.
Okay. Deep breath. I think I'm done now.
-Rebel w/o a Clue
# posted by : March 27, 2006 11:26 AM
: March 27, 2006 11:26 AM
Exluding the "Moshiach Issue" banter, I enjoyed reading how Chanie's quiz helped open a window to the 'inside' of Chabad.
I encourage you to study Chabad texts in the source and meet real live Lubavitchers and make your own judgements if you are interested in evaluating the Lubavitch, rather than working off the various negative rants you read on personal blogs given that they are very subjective and in many cases merely regurgitated hatred, loshon hora, rechilus and motsi shem ra.
Regarding the issue of Lubavitcher shechita, please consult with your local Chabad rabbi, or any Orthodox rabbi and I am sure they will be able to explain the rational much better than the nonsense written above.
The Rebbe was fond of the expression "nahara, nahara u'pashtei" - meaning that Judaism is a river with many valid streams.
- Something important for all Jews to remember, no matter what label you wear.
I encourage you to study Chabad texts in the source and meet real live Lubavitchers and make your own judgements if you are interested in evaluating the Lubavitch, rather than working off the various negative rants you read on personal blogs given that they are very subjective and in many cases merely regurgitated hatred, loshon hora, rechilus and motsi shem ra.
Regarding the issue of Lubavitcher shechita, please consult with your local Chabad rabbi, or any Orthodox rabbi and I am sure they will be able to explain the rational much better than the nonsense written above.
The Rebbe was fond of the expression "nahara, nahara u'pashtei" - meaning that Judaism is a river with many valid streams.
- Something important for all Jews to remember, no matter what label you wear.
"Is the Lubavitch community less accepting of alternative derachim to Avodas Hashem then they are of people who haven't found one yet at all? Do they paradoxically show more love for and acceptance of a not yet frum Jew than a Lubavitch girl who doesn't read Tanya religiously?"
Josh, I just wanted to tell you that I really like your blog and have a link to your blog from my blog. First, it is kind of funny that chabad can illicit so many feelings in every single person, either good or bad. When it comes to Belz, people usually don't have any comment, but when it comes to Chabad everyone has a feeling. I think the above issue is important. I don't really mind that a lubavitcher chasid is focused on teachings from his own rebeim and doesn't learn other seforim because I truly believe that their is so many chabad seforim out there and since the chabad derech is so unique, there really isn't any need for a chabad chasid to look outside of his own chasidus for a derech and inspiration. That being said, its crucial for chabad to realize and validate other jewish streams to deveykus hashem and that there exists other ways outside of chabad chassidus.
RICKY
http://www.mazel123.blogspot.com/
Josh, I just wanted to tell you that I really like your blog and have a link to your blog from my blog. First, it is kind of funny that chabad can illicit so many feelings in every single person, either good or bad. When it comes to Belz, people usually don't have any comment, but when it comes to Chabad everyone has a feeling. I think the above issue is important. I don't really mind that a lubavitcher chasid is focused on teachings from his own rebeim and doesn't learn other seforim because I truly believe that their is so many chabad seforim out there and since the chabad derech is so unique, there really isn't any need for a chabad chasid to look outside of his own chasidus for a derech and inspiration. That being said, its crucial for chabad to realize and validate other jewish streams to deveykus hashem and that there exists other ways outside of chabad chassidus.
RICKY
http://www.mazel123.blogspot.com/
While I am not... I like Lubavitch... they really put heart into the religion. I dont get the ones who think the Rebbe is moshiach and will be reborn. Mind boggling.
dont feel like logging in at this second....but in answer to shosh, the yechi 'prayer' goes like this:
Yechi adoneinu MOREINU vrabeinu, melech hamoshiach l'olam vaed!' The word BOREINU is not in there! Chas veshalom!
Yechi adoneinu MOREINU vrabeinu, melech hamoshiach l'olam vaed!' The word BOREINU is not in there! Chas veshalom!
# posted by : March 28, 2006 6:18 PM
: March 28, 2006 6:18 PM
I am a Lubavitcher and I've decided to give my thoughts on this interesting conversation.
To be clear, when I speak about a Chossid here I mean strictly a Lubavitcher Chossid, and not those following other sects.
Firstly, when one speaks about Chabad and asks "Do they do this, or that. Do they think this or that about them?" etc, one must keep in mind that Chabads ideology and actions are set by the Rebbe and only the Rebbe. So if we are to say what does Chabad think of other Chassidim, we measure that by seeing what the Rebbe has said, and how he told his followers to act, and not how Chassidim decide on their own.
The whole thing on Lubavitcher shechita made me laugh histericaly. A longer beard means more Yiras shomayim? We do hold that one should grow their beard, but the lengh is of no consequence at all. In fact there were many Chassidim who have longer beards than the Rebbe himself had, would that make them have more Yiras shomayim?!?!
I will not get into why we (not even all Chabad, but most) actually do worry about having a Chabad Shochet, thats a whole different issue.
There can be no test as to who is a Chossid. Everyone is different. For me saying 3 Perokim Rambam a day is what is expected from me, and for another putting on teffilin is a big deal. I don't remember the source, but I think it too is in Hayom Yom, A Chossid is someone who knows where he/she is holding in their Avodas Hashem and struggles to constantly improve on that.
The comments at the end of the test are incerdibally funny.
Well do Lubavitchers not accept other Frum Jews like they accept non-Frum Jews, it is a great question. Clearly the way the Rebbe treated all Jews was equall. The Rebbe went out of his way to help any Jew.
We are not trying to convert everyone to be Lubavitch but we are trying to spread Chassidus.
By introduction:
There is a famous story of the Baal Shem Tov, once he ascended to the heavens and saw an unusually bright chamber, upon asking who was there, he was told it was the chamber of Moshiach. He went into the chamber and asked the obvious question; "When will you come?" Moshiach answered him, "When your wellsprings (Chassidus) are spread to the outside."
So inorder to bring Moshiach we go and spread Chassidus to everyone.
The Rebbe explains in many places why it is specifically now, in the times before Moshiach, that chassidus is needed, and why not before the times of the Baal Shem Tov.
So chabad is out to spread Chassidus, yes, to averyone. We deffinately don't look down on you if you don't, that goes against a positive comandment in the Torah, and anyone who does is going against the very teachings that he thinks make him superier.
One of the famous teachings of the Rebbe is about the students of Rabbi akiva all passing away during the Sefirah period, because "Lo nohagu Kavod Zeh Lazeh-They didn't give respect to eachother" The Rebbe asks, how is this possible? Rabbi Akiva was the one who taught that Veahavta Lereiacha Komoicho is KLAL GADOL BATORAH! So how is it that his very students went against that?
The answer is that they went overboard. Each one had interpretation of Rabbi Akivas teachings according to their undestanding and emotion. for one the way to serve Hashem was through Chesed and for yet another through Gevurah. Each one, being a student of Rabbi akiva, wanted to put into action his main teaching, to love his fellow. So they wanted to teach the other students to follow in the way they understood to be true. Their mistake was in not respecting that each person has a different way to serve Hashem, and your way is not the only way. That is why they all died.
So as a follower of the Rebbe I respect every single Jew, no matter if he is Satmar, Belz, reform etc. I try teach everyone something they don't, and try learn from them something I don't yet know (Way too much for me to handle!)
I can sense that some of you will have a problem that Chabad wishes to spread Chassidus to everyone, all I can say is try it. Learn some chassidus, learn Tanya, I know it changed my life, changed the lives of many people I know, and I guarantee it will change yours too.
And as was commented above, it should be learned in depth.
Learning by heart is also good, to have pure things to think about, but that does not distract from the fact that it must be learned in depth.
To be clear, when I speak about a Chossid here I mean strictly a Lubavitcher Chossid, and not those following other sects.
Firstly, when one speaks about Chabad and asks "Do they do this, or that. Do they think this or that about them?" etc, one must keep in mind that Chabads ideology and actions are set by the Rebbe and only the Rebbe. So if we are to say what does Chabad think of other Chassidim, we measure that by seeing what the Rebbe has said, and how he told his followers to act, and not how Chassidim decide on their own.
The whole thing on Lubavitcher shechita made me laugh histericaly. A longer beard means more Yiras shomayim? We do hold that one should grow their beard, but the lengh is of no consequence at all. In fact there were many Chassidim who have longer beards than the Rebbe himself had, would that make them have more Yiras shomayim?!?!
I will not get into why we (not even all Chabad, but most) actually do worry about having a Chabad Shochet, thats a whole different issue.
There can be no test as to who is a Chossid. Everyone is different. For me saying 3 Perokim Rambam a day is what is expected from me, and for another putting on teffilin is a big deal. I don't remember the source, but I think it too is in Hayom Yom, A Chossid is someone who knows where he/she is holding in their Avodas Hashem and struggles to constantly improve on that.
The comments at the end of the test are incerdibally funny.
Well do Lubavitchers not accept other Frum Jews like they accept non-Frum Jews, it is a great question. Clearly the way the Rebbe treated all Jews was equall. The Rebbe went out of his way to help any Jew.
We are not trying to convert everyone to be Lubavitch but we are trying to spread Chassidus.
By introduction:
There is a famous story of the Baal Shem Tov, once he ascended to the heavens and saw an unusually bright chamber, upon asking who was there, he was told it was the chamber of Moshiach. He went into the chamber and asked the obvious question; "When will you come?" Moshiach answered him, "When your wellsprings (Chassidus) are spread to the outside."
So inorder to bring Moshiach we go and spread Chassidus to everyone.
The Rebbe explains in many places why it is specifically now, in the times before Moshiach, that chassidus is needed, and why not before the times of the Baal Shem Tov.
So chabad is out to spread Chassidus, yes, to averyone. We deffinately don't look down on you if you don't, that goes against a positive comandment in the Torah, and anyone who does is going against the very teachings that he thinks make him superier.
One of the famous teachings of the Rebbe is about the students of Rabbi akiva all passing away during the Sefirah period, because "Lo nohagu Kavod Zeh Lazeh-They didn't give respect to eachother" The Rebbe asks, how is this possible? Rabbi Akiva was the one who taught that Veahavta Lereiacha Komoicho is KLAL GADOL BATORAH! So how is it that his very students went against that?
The answer is that they went overboard. Each one had interpretation of Rabbi Akivas teachings according to their undestanding and emotion. for one the way to serve Hashem was through Chesed and for yet another through Gevurah. Each one, being a student of Rabbi akiva, wanted to put into action his main teaching, to love his fellow. So they wanted to teach the other students to follow in the way they understood to be true. Their mistake was in not respecting that each person has a different way to serve Hashem, and your way is not the only way. That is why they all died.
So as a follower of the Rebbe I respect every single Jew, no matter if he is Satmar, Belz, reform etc. I try teach everyone something they don't, and try learn from them something I don't yet know (Way too much for me to handle!)
I can sense that some of you will have a problem that Chabad wishes to spread Chassidus to everyone, all I can say is try it. Learn some chassidus, learn Tanya, I know it changed my life, changed the lives of many people I know, and I guarantee it will change yours too.
And as was commented above, it should be learned in depth.
Learning by heart is also good, to have pure things to think about, but that does not distract from the fact that it must be learned in depth.
# posted by : March 29, 2006 5:55 PM
: March 29, 2006 5:55 PM
EC - There definitely is anti-Chabad mojo out there, more so than other Jewish groups. I think this is unfortunate, and one of the reasons I wrote this post. Hopefully, some of the loyalists can help debunk the rumors that give Chabad a bad name, which I think some of them have done.
S - Grinning because you're so close to being a Chossid, or because you got the lowest score on the test?
And Anon - you'll be happy to know that I thought of much less family friendly interpretations of Shosh's line.
Seth - And we have the same taste in women. Hi Ali!
Anon (RW/OAC) - I don't think cult is the right word to describe the perception. But when a specific group of Jews has an approach to Avodas Hashem that involves items unheard of outside that segment, it raises flags that they aren't so mainstream. Unfortunately, this can be the case when the pure intentions of the Rebbe become warped by his followers, especially in his absence. I've tried avoiding the Moshiach thing, but I'll make a quick summary of my opinion. Whether or not the Rebbe's death invalidates him for the Moshiach, Moshiach hasn't come yet. If the Rebbe comes back to life and fulfills all of the Messianic prophesies, we can debate whether he is invalidated by his prior death. But now? There's nothing to talk about. As far as your understanding of Lifnim M'Shuras Hadin, it's quite flawed, to say the least. Lifnim M'Shuras hadin involves following the spirit of the law, but reading Rambam wouldn't involve that any more than reading the Maharam Shick. Some of the things the Rebbe encouraged may bring a person closer to Gd, but you only get credit if you do come closer. Gd doesn't say, well at least he went to a Farbrengen, even if he just spaced out and didn't grow. Finally, as far as the cliqueishness, I agree that it is an unacceptable social flaw that the Rebbe wouldn't have approved of.
More to come...
S - Grinning because you're so close to being a Chossid, or because you got the lowest score on the test?
And Anon - you'll be happy to know that I thought of much less family friendly interpretations of Shosh's line.
Seth - And we have the same taste in women. Hi Ali!
Anon (RW/OAC) - I don't think cult is the right word to describe the perception. But when a specific group of Jews has an approach to Avodas Hashem that involves items unheard of outside that segment, it raises flags that they aren't so mainstream. Unfortunately, this can be the case when the pure intentions of the Rebbe become warped by his followers, especially in his absence. I've tried avoiding the Moshiach thing, but I'll make a quick summary of my opinion. Whether or not the Rebbe's death invalidates him for the Moshiach, Moshiach hasn't come yet. If the Rebbe comes back to life and fulfills all of the Messianic prophesies, we can debate whether he is invalidated by his prior death. But now? There's nothing to talk about. As far as your understanding of Lifnim M'Shuras Hadin, it's quite flawed, to say the least. Lifnim M'Shuras hadin involves following the spirit of the law, but reading Rambam wouldn't involve that any more than reading the Maharam Shick. Some of the things the Rebbe encouraged may bring a person closer to Gd, but you only get credit if you do come closer. Gd doesn't say, well at least he went to a Farbrengen, even if he just spaced out and didn't grow. Finally, as far as the cliqueishness, I agree that it is an unacceptable social flaw that the Rebbe wouldn't have approved of.
More to come...
Farbrengens are hard to understand for someone who hasn't sat and experianced what its all about. The point of a Farbrengen is to improve in ones Avoda, and if one does not walk away from the Farbrengen with a tangable improvement, the Farbrngen was a waste of time. Just like any chat session with your buddies.
I owe alot of what I am today to Farbrengens. I took alot of what I learned in Chassidus, and brought it down in a very real way. Some of the most meaningful Farbrengens I ever had, were just me and a few friends sitting and speaking about our troubles, in a way that we understood eachother when Rabbis and Mashpiim would not necessarily have.
Hope this clarifies the Farbrengen issue.
About the Rambam, the Rebbe picked the Rambam for very specific reasons. Looking into the introduction of the Rambam you can get a better understanding but this is the gist.
The rambam says the with his work all you need to learn is the Torah Shebiksav, his work and you have everything. After learning the rambam you get a overall knowledge of ALL Halocho, all this in ONE year! and even though we don't Pasken like the Rambam, it gives one a great practical knowledge of Halocho. Try it, it's great!
Good to see a great discussion on the web, instead of a Chabad bash session that usually happens! You have renewed my faith!
I owe alot of what I am today to Farbrengens. I took alot of what I learned in Chassidus, and brought it down in a very real way. Some of the most meaningful Farbrengens I ever had, were just me and a few friends sitting and speaking about our troubles, in a way that we understood eachother when Rabbis and Mashpiim would not necessarily have.
Hope this clarifies the Farbrengen issue.
About the Rambam, the Rebbe picked the Rambam for very specific reasons. Looking into the introduction of the Rambam you can get a better understanding but this is the gist.
The rambam says the with his work all you need to learn is the Torah Shebiksav, his work and you have everything. After learning the rambam you get a overall knowledge of ALL Halocho, all this in ONE year! and even though we don't Pasken like the Rambam, it gives one a great practical knowledge of Halocho. Try it, it's great!
Good to see a great discussion on the web, instead of a Chabad bash session that usually happens! You have renewed my faith!
# posted by : March 29, 2006 10:07 PM
: March 29, 2006 10:07 PM
Hey Josh, guess what! I disagree with you! Crazy, right?
I think Anon understands that these things that the Rebbe instituted only have the effect of bringing a person closer to G-d if said person actually comes closer to G-d. I think what he doesn't get is our perception, as non-Lubavitchers, that things like "saying Rambam" are done by rote and therefore are not beneficial to the doer. These things do not bring a person closer to G-d in and of themselves, when they become rote habits. The idea of "saying Rambam" (and that's in quotes for the following reason) is that the Rebbe wanted his Chassidim to learn Torah, and Rambam is very clearly defined, easily broken down into sections, and simple-to-understand Halachah, all of which make it easier to memorize, thereby making it easier for one to learn anywhere, anytime. At least I think that was the idea behind it. I don't think merely reciting Shulhan 'Aruch, Rambam, Rashi, or any part of Shas (or Tanya for that matter) is going to bring someone very much closer to G-d, nor do I think that was the intention of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure that learning any miniscule amount of Torah, however superficially, does carry with it an inherent reward, as it does bring a person closer to G-d. I am sure that there is a source for this, although I've spent the last hour looking for it and can't find it. In the meantime here's the closest I could come, and it'll have to do for now. Pesahim 22b relates that Shim'on the 'Asmonite made errors in his interpretation of the Torah, and he tells his students that he is rewarded for separating himself from those errors, just as he is rewarded for the time and effort spent learning in error. In other words, any learning a person does, even when one doesn't correctly understand what he is learning, carries a reward. So if those who "say Rambam" understand even the most minimal amount of what they are saying, they are in fact learning Torah, earning reward, and getting closer to G-d.
Having said that, I do not believe that this constitutes Lifnim MiShuras HaDin, going beyond the letter of the law. We are obligated to learn Torah "Yomam VaLaylah", day and night, and so any learning we do is inherently not Lifnim MiShuras HaDin.
And Ali says hi. Actually she says "Mwah!", as in blowing a kiss, but I don't know how Tzanua' that is, so we're going to pretend it didn't happen. OK? OK!
Good night!
I think Anon understands that these things that the Rebbe instituted only have the effect of bringing a person closer to G-d if said person actually comes closer to G-d. I think what he doesn't get is our perception, as non-Lubavitchers, that things like "saying Rambam" are done by rote and therefore are not beneficial to the doer. These things do not bring a person closer to G-d in and of themselves, when they become rote habits. The idea of "saying Rambam" (and that's in quotes for the following reason) is that the Rebbe wanted his Chassidim to learn Torah, and Rambam is very clearly defined, easily broken down into sections, and simple-to-understand Halachah, all of which make it easier to memorize, thereby making it easier for one to learn anywhere, anytime. At least I think that was the idea behind it. I don't think merely reciting Shulhan 'Aruch, Rambam, Rashi, or any part of Shas (or Tanya for that matter) is going to bring someone very much closer to G-d, nor do I think that was the intention of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure that learning any miniscule amount of Torah, however superficially, does carry with it an inherent reward, as it does bring a person closer to G-d. I am sure that there is a source for this, although I've spent the last hour looking for it and can't find it. In the meantime here's the closest I could come, and it'll have to do for now. Pesahim 22b relates that Shim'on the 'Asmonite made errors in his interpretation of the Torah, and he tells his students that he is rewarded for separating himself from those errors, just as he is rewarded for the time and effort spent learning in error. In other words, any learning a person does, even when one doesn't correctly understand what he is learning, carries a reward. So if those who "say Rambam" understand even the most minimal amount of what they are saying, they are in fact learning Torah, earning reward, and getting closer to G-d.
Having said that, I do not believe that this constitutes Lifnim MiShuras HaDin, going beyond the letter of the law. We are obligated to learn Torah "Yomam VaLaylah", day and night, and so any learning we do is inherently not Lifnim MiShuras HaDin.
And Ali says hi. Actually she says "Mwah!", as in blowing a kiss, but I don't know how Tzanua' that is, so we're going to pretend it didn't happen. OK? OK!
Good night!
...Then this is the meaning of the statement in the sacred Zohar, that "when a Tzadik departs he is to be found in all the worlds more that during his lifetime" That is even in the world of action...this light radiates to the earth and to the outside places (both Eretz Yisroel and outside Eretz Yisroel) and also to us, those who are here this day, all of us who live in his ways...The above, (regarding the increased presence of the departed) relates to the service of G-d, in heavenly (spiritual) matters (in this area his deciples can now receive even more guidance and benefit than they did during his lifetime) As for mundane matters (material) it is stated explicitly in the Zohar, that the Tzadikim shield the world after their death even more than during their life. Moreover were it not for the prayers of the Tzadikim in the other world, this world would not endure a single moment.
Letter of condolence from the Alter Rebbe, Reb Schneur Zalman of Liadi to the Chasidim in Eretz Yisroel,upon the death of the saintly Reb Mendel of Vitebsk (or Horodok) 1777
Letter of condolence from the Alter Rebbe, Reb Schneur Zalman of Liadi to the Chasidim in Eretz Yisroel,upon the death of the saintly Reb Mendel of Vitebsk (or Horodok) 1777
# posted by : March 30, 2006 10:42 AM
: March 30, 2006 10:42 AM
Seth you are indeed right. The Rebbe instituted the STUDY of Rambam, not the repetition of Rambam. And the Rebbe's directives are followed by his Chassidim. Walk into any Lubavitcher Yeshivah during breaktime (Chitas, Rambam etc are all extra, and are not to be studied during the times of Seder) and you will see it. Bochurim LEARNING Rambam.
About the Rebbe being alive, it's nothing new. Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes, Moshe Lo Mes, of course, all to be taken within context. I go whenever possible (I do not live in NYC) to the gravesite of the Rebbe, and still maintain the Rebbe is alive.
About the Rebbe being alive, it's nothing new. Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes, Moshe Lo Mes, of course, all to be taken within context. I go whenever possible (I do not live in NYC) to the gravesite of the Rebbe, and still maintain the Rebbe is alive.
# posted by : March 30, 2006 3:22 PM
: March 30, 2006 3:22 PM
first of all, I believe in the Rebbe being alive as the Gemoro says so, "Mah Zaro Bachayim Af Hu Bachayim". I thought it would be clear enough from me saying I go to the Rebbes gravesite that I deffinately do not believe the Rebbe is alive physically. "In context" meant exactly that. NOT physically (though intrestingly enough it gets a bit confusing with Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes, as it says "Why did they embalm him, the answer: Sevurim hoyu shemes, they "thought" he had died, [though in truth he had not] and there are some Meforshim who explain this to mean physically.)
Looking at the thousands of Shluchim that have gone out since Gimmel Tamuz 5754 (the day of the Rebbes passing) and how Chabad has grown leaps and bounds, one has to come to the same conclusion, in them I see that the Rebbe is alive. I was reading and watching news reports from that time in 1994, everyone predicts the downfall of Chabad, one reporter lifts up his hand and says, "you see 5 fingers, 5 years thats how much time Chabad has."
In the rest of the Jewish world the same opinions were voiced, without the Rebbe, Lubavitch is doomed. How can a sect which is so leader-driven survive without their leader.
We still have our leader, we have his teachings, and try follow them to the best of our capabalities. It is not easy following what the Rebbe wants, especially if you haven't met the Rebbe ever, but we do, and we are growing, B"H.
That my friend is why I say the Rebbe is alive.
I daven everyday for the day Moshiach will come and we will once again see the Rebbe.
I hope I clarified myself.
Looking at the thousands of Shluchim that have gone out since Gimmel Tamuz 5754 (the day of the Rebbes passing) and how Chabad has grown leaps and bounds, one has to come to the same conclusion, in them I see that the Rebbe is alive. I was reading and watching news reports from that time in 1994, everyone predicts the downfall of Chabad, one reporter lifts up his hand and says, "you see 5 fingers, 5 years thats how much time Chabad has."
In the rest of the Jewish world the same opinions were voiced, without the Rebbe, Lubavitch is doomed. How can a sect which is so leader-driven survive without their leader.
We still have our leader, we have his teachings, and try follow them to the best of our capabalities. It is not easy following what the Rebbe wants, especially if you haven't met the Rebbe ever, but we do, and we are growing, B"H.
That my friend is why I say the Rebbe is alive.
I daven everyday for the day Moshiach will come and we will once again see the Rebbe.
I hope I clarified myself.
# posted by : April 02, 2006 8:09 AM
: April 02, 2006 8:09 AM
Tailor -
I assure you I have many more problems with Chabad than you do. But to set the facts straight, the Gemora does indeed say - as Yehuda claimed - that Yaakov Avinu lo meis. Your kasha from the fact that he was embalmed and buried is indeed asked by the Gemora itself there, which nevertheless answers that "I have a diyuk from a pasuk which indicates he's still alive" and that defines reality and you can't ask me further questions on my position. See Taanis 5b.
As for Moshe Rabbeinu lo meis, that's also a Gemora - Sotah 13b.
Feel free to take issue with the Rebbe being alive, just do it for the right reasons.
I assure you I have many more problems with Chabad than you do. But to set the facts straight, the Gemora does indeed say - as Yehuda claimed - that Yaakov Avinu lo meis. Your kasha from the fact that he was embalmed and buried is indeed asked by the Gemora itself there, which nevertheless answers that "I have a diyuk from a pasuk which indicates he's still alive" and that defines reality and you can't ask me further questions on my position. See Taanis 5b.
As for Moshe Rabbeinu lo meis, that's also a Gemora - Sotah 13b.
Feel free to take issue with the Rebbe being alive, just do it for the right reasons.
# posted by : April 02, 2006 11:16 PM
: April 02, 2006 11:16 PM
Tailor, I should just tell you that "Yaakov Lo Mes" is actually a quote from the Gemara, Ta'anis 5b. Rashi seems to have no problem taking it literally. But he is not the only commentary on that Gemara, nor is it 100% clear that he means it literally. A very, very strong case can be made that he does mean that, though.
Anyway, Yehuda, my point is this: Chazal can make comments like this about our Avos. Even if we accept that the past Lubavitcher Rebbe (Zecher Tzaddik LiVrachah) was on a high enough plane that he could make these judgments about other Gedolim, and that the previous Rebbe fell into the category on the level of the Avos (which, to be honest, I'm not so sure I can accept), Rabbi Majeski and the other people pushing the Mashichist movement are in no way Chazal, and they are in no way R' Schneerson.
I think there is a lot to be said for Kabbalah here. In other words, if you don't understand all of Torah, you can't understand Kabbalah, and if you can't understand Kabbalah and the inner workings of the world on a cosmic level, you cannot possibly make claims about who really died and who only appeared to have died.
You CANNOT say that just because the Gemara says that one of our Avos did not die, that now automatically every Gadol didn't really die. The former is not a Raayah (proof) of the latter. It is an independent statement by Chazal.
I'm beginning to rant, so I'll stop here. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I really feel uncomfortable with the idea of taking random MaAmarei Chazal out of context as proofs for things we'd like to believe are true.
Anyway, Yehuda, my point is this: Chazal can make comments like this about our Avos. Even if we accept that the past Lubavitcher Rebbe (Zecher Tzaddik LiVrachah) was on a high enough plane that he could make these judgments about other Gedolim, and that the previous Rebbe fell into the category on the level of the Avos (which, to be honest, I'm not so sure I can accept), Rabbi Majeski and the other people pushing the Mashichist movement are in no way Chazal, and they are in no way R' Schneerson.
I think there is a lot to be said for Kabbalah here. In other words, if you don't understand all of Torah, you can't understand Kabbalah, and if you can't understand Kabbalah and the inner workings of the world on a cosmic level, you cannot possibly make claims about who really died and who only appeared to have died.
You CANNOT say that just because the Gemara says that one of our Avos did not die, that now automatically every Gadol didn't really die. The former is not a Raayah (proof) of the latter. It is an independent statement by Chazal.
I'm beginning to rant, so I'll stop here. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I really feel uncomfortable with the idea of taking random MaAmarei Chazal out of context as proofs for things we'd like to believe are true.
Hey everyone. I just want to say once again how amazed I am at this discussion. 41 comments!
Anyway, to follow up on my previous comment:
Josh, I think we basically agree. I get very defensive when ppl talk about Chabad because I always assume they will concentrate on the negative when there really is so much good. Lubavitchers do crazy things especially now that the Rebbe isn't around to set us straight and it's hard to diffrentiate what is Chabad philosophy and what's just random ppl doing things in the name of Chabad. Anyway, as far as Mashiach goes, the issue isn't whether or not the Rebbe is Mashiach, but whether the ppl who believe he is are breaking halachah. I think they are not.
Seth, thanks for backing me up. I just want to point out that I am a she, not a he. learning Yomam Valaylah is only a chiyuv for men, so it would be "lifnim..." for women.
And by the way Josh, what's up with you coveting married women?
-Rebel w/o a Clue
Anyway, to follow up on my previous comment:
Josh, I think we basically agree. I get very defensive when ppl talk about Chabad because I always assume they will concentrate on the negative when there really is so much good. Lubavitchers do crazy things especially now that the Rebbe isn't around to set us straight and it's hard to diffrentiate what is Chabad philosophy and what's just random ppl doing things in the name of Chabad. Anyway, as far as Mashiach goes, the issue isn't whether or not the Rebbe is Mashiach, but whether the ppl who believe he is are breaking halachah. I think they are not.
Seth, thanks for backing me up. I just want to point out that I am a she, not a he. learning Yomam Valaylah is only a chiyuv for men, so it would be "lifnim..." for women.
And by the way Josh, what's up with you coveting married women?
-Rebel w/o a Clue
# posted by : April 03, 2006 11:39 AM
: April 03, 2006 11:39 AM
I think we have strayed from the point point here, and I have made myself clear on the issue of the Rebbe being alive. So I'd like to return the main point and add one comment.
"As far as the "elitism" issue, again my concern is the impact it has on the jewish people and the potential friction it can cause."
I think as far as elitism goes Chabad is far from the worst culpirate. But I do understand that we are judged harsher because of our stance. We accept EVERYONE, no matter what level of
observance, no matter what affiliation. So thats why we are judged harsher on our attitude towards other FRUM Jews.
All I can say is what I have said before, Chabad policy is set by the Rebbe. His attitude was clear, unconditional love to all. I would hope all his Chassidim follow his directives, and for the most part, I have seen that they do.
"As far as the "elitism" issue, again my concern is the impact it has on the jewish people and the potential friction it can cause."
I think as far as elitism goes Chabad is far from the worst culpirate. But I do understand that we are judged harsher because of our stance. We accept EVERYONE, no matter what level of
observance, no matter what affiliation. So thats why we are judged harsher on our attitude towards other FRUM Jews.
All I can say is what I have said before, Chabad policy is set by the Rebbe. His attitude was clear, unconditional love to all. I would hope all his Chassidim follow his directives, and for the most part, I have seen that they do.
# posted by : April 03, 2006 11:55 AM
: April 03, 2006 11:55 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding to everybody. Obviously, a lot was said, and well I read everything in real time, I didn't even have time to respond on my own blog! I apologize.
Yehuda - You make very valid points about the tremendous benefits that fabrengens and the Rambam can both contribute to spirituality. I wholeheartedly agree that these are wonderful avenues for coming closer to Gd. However, they only accomplish anything if it works for you. If somebody spaces out at a fabrengen, he doesn't get any "schar Halicha". So while these are great things to recommend, you wouldn't want to fall into the trap of thinking of these as mitzvos in and of themselves. Some will find that other means work closer at binding with HK"BH.
Seth - It's interesting, in your observation of the Rebbe's intent, you point out something important. A rebbe's strength lies in his ability to connect with each person. People who view the Rebbe as their rebbe, but have never met him aren't getting advice that is personal. So it's very possible that what the Rebbe identified as beneficial to a person won't apply to them, but since the Rebbe is niftar, there is no personalization of advice, so now Chabad has no real leadership. At least not like when the Rebbe was alive. Lifnim M'shuras Hadim-another important topic, which you correctly identified as being misused. Giving extra tzedakah (up to 20%) is L"MSHHAD. Going out of your way to serve food at a soup kitchen is L"MSHHAD. But going to a fabrengen is nothing in and of itself.
Anon (Zohar) - I fully agree that it is not a contraversial statement to view the Rebbe as with us today in a spiritual sense, praying for us in the Olam Shel Emes. But I don't think he's answering faxes.
Yehuda - one of the problem's is when statements such as "the Rebbe's still alive" are thrown around casually. Obviously, if you merely mean his influence, nobody would disagree. But there are those that believe that this has a physical reality as well, so it's important to be clear on your intention.
Yehuda - You make very valid points about the tremendous benefits that fabrengens and the Rambam can both contribute to spirituality. I wholeheartedly agree that these are wonderful avenues for coming closer to Gd. However, they only accomplish anything if it works for you. If somebody spaces out at a fabrengen, he doesn't get any "schar Halicha". So while these are great things to recommend, you wouldn't want to fall into the trap of thinking of these as mitzvos in and of themselves. Some will find that other means work closer at binding with HK"BH.
Seth - It's interesting, in your observation of the Rebbe's intent, you point out something important. A rebbe's strength lies in his ability to connect with each person. People who view the Rebbe as their rebbe, but have never met him aren't getting advice that is personal. So it's very possible that what the Rebbe identified as beneficial to a person won't apply to them, but since the Rebbe is niftar, there is no personalization of advice, so now Chabad has no real leadership. At least not like when the Rebbe was alive. Lifnim M'shuras Hadim-another important topic, which you correctly identified as being misused. Giving extra tzedakah (up to 20%) is L"MSHHAD. Going out of your way to serve food at a soup kitchen is L"MSHHAD. But going to a fabrengen is nothing in and of itself.
Anon (Zohar) - I fully agree that it is not a contraversial statement to view the Rebbe as with us today in a spiritual sense, praying for us in the Olam Shel Emes. But I don't think he's answering faxes.
Yehuda - one of the problem's is when statements such as "the Rebbe's still alive" are thrown around casually. Obviously, if you merely mean his influence, nobody would disagree. But there are those that believe that this has a physical reality as well, so it's important to be clear on your intention.
I'm going to do something here for the first time on my blog - I'm not going to individually address every comment. This post ended up being immensely more involved than I'd anticipated, and I don't have the time to address everybody's points personally, especially since you all had time to address each other already. I want everybody to know, both my new and regular readers, that I appreciated everybody's well thought out opinions and perspectives, and I gained immensely from you all having shared them.
I definitely expanded the window into the Lubavitch world that Chanie opened. While I see that there are those that defend or exasperate the issues that give Lubavitch a bad name, there are many more Lubavitcher's filled with love for Yidden and Yiddishkeit, the bountiful love they have learned from the Rebbe, Z"TL.
May we all do one act to bring a fellow Jew closer to his Creator, and in that merit may we all see the coming of Moshiach, tomorrow.
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I definitely expanded the window into the Lubavitch world that Chanie opened. While I see that there are those that defend or exasperate the issues that give Lubavitch a bad name, there are many more Lubavitcher's filled with love for Yidden and Yiddishkeit, the bountiful love they have learned from the Rebbe, Z"TL.
May we all do one act to bring a fellow Jew closer to his Creator, and in that merit may we all see the coming of Moshiach, tomorrow.
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