Thursday, March 02, 2006
Frei Guys Have All the Fun
At Friday night dinner on the UWS, one of the guests made this interesting observation. Yeshivish people have no life. He didn't mean that in a specifically mocking way. He just meant that they don't do anything. They don't go out to movies, they don't go to bars or clubs, and they don't really go out to any of the places that most other people do.
The first question - is the observation valid? Perhaps it is an unfair generalization. But I tend to agree with the speaker, if for no other reason than I have no life either. The second question - why would this be so? Is it part of the Yeshivish hashkafa that hobbies are Assur? Is it specifically a Modern Orthodox feature to have outside interests?
I think if you look closely, right wing orthodox people do indeed have personal interests they are occupied with in addition to just Torah and sleep. However, I think the disdain for busying ourselves with entertainment bespeaks the Hashkafa that our lives our filled with purpose. By spending our life searching for ways to occupy our time, we are only finding ways to ignore our potential. If life is about growth, how can we value as a society interests that are meant to distract us from acheiving our potential? It is a valueless society that leaves its citizens struggling to find mundane matters to occupy their time so as to distract them from their mortality. But a religious mind filled with purpose knows there is so much more to accomplish. How can you watch prime time tv, when you consider the fact that you ideologically know that it doesn't represent any improvement, personally or communally?
Does that mean that all forms of entertainment are forbidden temptations, hedonistic self-worship? Does this mean that somebody who can't handle the pressure of constant acheivement is left behind? No. It just means we have to understand our actions in context. Recognize what is growth, what is rest, and what is waste. You can watch Seinfeld to gain a greater artistic understanding of Gd's creations, you can watch it to enjoy a lighthearted critique of society, or you can enjoy it for the rampant sexual connotations.
Earlier in my life, I viewed Modern Orthodoxy as the latter - living its values contrary to a Torah lifestyle when not specifically usurped by Halachah. Later, I gained appreciation for Modern Orthodoxy to accomplish the former - to learn from even the most un-Torah sources the secrets of creation. However, it seems that even the cream of the Modern Orthodox crop seem stuck in that middle category today, that living in recreational mode is enough.
Do Yeshivish people have no hobbies because they are growth oriented? Surely this wouldn't be going through everyone's mind - many were just told it is frei to partake in these activities. But what of those people that can't keep up with this rigorous lifestyle? Is Assur an answer, when not ideal is the truth? Should we enforce the ideal as a communal standard? Should we just admit that they aren't on a certain level, and do keep themselves entertained, and vaguely on the derech? How should the Yeshivish world view these people? Or perhaps they have a secret that we don't.
Or maybe I should just get a life.
The first question - is the observation valid? Perhaps it is an unfair generalization. But I tend to agree with the speaker, if for no other reason than I have no life either. The second question - why would this be so? Is it part of the Yeshivish hashkafa that hobbies are Assur? Is it specifically a Modern Orthodox feature to have outside interests?
I think if you look closely, right wing orthodox people do indeed have personal interests they are occupied with in addition to just Torah and sleep. However, I think the disdain for busying ourselves with entertainment bespeaks the Hashkafa that our lives our filled with purpose. By spending our life searching for ways to occupy our time, we are only finding ways to ignore our potential. If life is about growth, how can we value as a society interests that are meant to distract us from acheiving our potential? It is a valueless society that leaves its citizens struggling to find mundane matters to occupy their time so as to distract them from their mortality. But a religious mind filled with purpose knows there is so much more to accomplish. How can you watch prime time tv, when you consider the fact that you ideologically know that it doesn't represent any improvement, personally or communally?
Does that mean that all forms of entertainment are forbidden temptations, hedonistic self-worship? Does this mean that somebody who can't handle the pressure of constant acheivement is left behind? No. It just means we have to understand our actions in context. Recognize what is growth, what is rest, and what is waste. You can watch Seinfeld to gain a greater artistic understanding of Gd's creations, you can watch it to enjoy a lighthearted critique of society, or you can enjoy it for the rampant sexual connotations.
Earlier in my life, I viewed Modern Orthodoxy as the latter - living its values contrary to a Torah lifestyle when not specifically usurped by Halachah. Later, I gained appreciation for Modern Orthodoxy to accomplish the former - to learn from even the most un-Torah sources the secrets of creation. However, it seems that even the cream of the Modern Orthodox crop seem stuck in that middle category today, that living in recreational mode is enough.
Do Yeshivish people have no hobbies because they are growth oriented? Surely this wouldn't be going through everyone's mind - many were just told it is frei to partake in these activities. But what of those people that can't keep up with this rigorous lifestyle? Is Assur an answer, when not ideal is the truth? Should we enforce the ideal as a communal standard? Should we just admit that they aren't on a certain level, and do keep themselves entertained, and vaguely on the derech? How should the Yeshivish world view these people? Or perhaps they have a secret that we don't.
Or maybe I should just get a life.
# posted by Josh : Thursday, March 02, 2006
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first time reader here. I think the 'observation' made by the guest is very self centered and frankly immature. How can someone think that unless someone else does the things they do, they are not living? A frum person's 2 hours at a shiur might be just as entertaining as your friend going to a movie.
Your comments and questions about what a frum person who does not enjoy the 2 hour shiur as he/she would a movie is very valid. This is an issue that the frum (charedi) community has been grappeling with for a long time. I think many mechanchim are finally addressing the needs of a yeshiva/BY student who is not interested in limudei kodesh or sprititual studies. I have seen some remarkable strides being made in schools and elsewhere, teaching kids and adults how to balance the requirements of yiddishkeit with the cheshek of participating in (for lack of a better term) olam hazeh.
Great blog BTW
Your comments and questions about what a frum person who does not enjoy the 2 hour shiur as he/she would a movie is very valid. This is an issue that the frum (charedi) community has been grappeling with for a long time. I think many mechanchim are finally addressing the needs of a yeshiva/BY student who is not interested in limudei kodesh or sprititual studies. I have seen some remarkable strides being made in schools and elsewhere, teaching kids and adults how to balance the requirements of yiddishkeit with the cheshek of participating in (for lack of a better term) olam hazeh.
Great blog BTW
Wow, shows what little I know -- I had no idea there was a difference between the types of enjoyment one could potentially occupy themselves with in the Yeshivish versus Modern Orthodox world.
Would there be a difference between, say going to a baseball game (which I know you hate, but biases aside) and going to the aquarium? Or do both acitivities contribute to the forfeiting of life potential since both are instances of time spent away from learning Torah?
Is there no amount of learning that could be accured from both of these experiences ... and additionally, is there no time or necessity for the yeshivish boy to actually close his books, if just for two hours, to stare through the tanks at the aquarium at the wonders of His creatures?
Would there be a difference between, say going to a baseball game (which I know you hate, but biases aside) and going to the aquarium? Or do both acitivities contribute to the forfeiting of life potential since both are instances of time spent away from learning Torah?
Is there no amount of learning that could be accured from both of these experiences ... and additionally, is there no time or necessity for the yeshivish boy to actually close his books, if just for two hours, to stare through the tanks at the aquarium at the wonders of His creatures?
As aLmost Frye said... it is about finding a balance. There should not be a cookie cutter way. Although we all strive for the best, we cannot allow ourselves to become sick trying. I think it is important that if someone have a talent that they should pursue that as a hobby like playing an instrument or art. I don't consider watching TV a hobby, I just consider that a huge waste of time for when a person wants to space out and escape life. Again... balance, balance, balance. It is all about balance. Figure out who you are deep inside, know your limits and then treat yourself accordingly. While it is important to strive, it is also important to give yourself a break.
Having fun, entertaining oneself is not an issur even for the frumest person alive.
If someone derives leisure from learning Torah, well then he's one lucky fellow. But if not kosher alternatives are not lacking.
I have friends who don't go to movies nor to bars, yet the honest laughs we have while playing a nice game like monopoly or Taboo, or while shooting some hoops in the garden far outweigh the drunken laughs of the low lives, spending their lives and money in bars.
If someone derives leisure from learning Torah, well then he's one lucky fellow. But if not kosher alternatives are not lacking.
I have friends who don't go to movies nor to bars, yet the honest laughs we have while playing a nice game like monopoly or Taboo, or while shooting some hoops in the garden far outweigh the drunken laughs of the low lives, spending their lives and money in bars.
The yeshivish guys looking for hobbies since they can't do what modern people do seem to join hatzolah so they can get team jackets and accessorize their car and then hock with other hatzolah guys about said accessories and walkie-talkies
# posted by 
: March 07, 2006 11:52 AM
: March 07, 2006 11:52 AM
Mas - I am definitely of your speed. (Although there are more than two kinds of free.) But while you and I chase our potential, what does that mean about how we as a frum society view those activities pursued by those that don't? Is it realistic to assume that everyone should be pushing 110%? Should we look down on those people? Or should those people find ways to reach their potential in non-typical ways?
MH - I think you've pinpointed the common perception. But is it right? What if somebody goes birdwatching because they enjoy tracing the beauty of creation? What if they enjoy doing Chessed? We frown on non-Torah activity. But what is the limit between wasting one's time and finding spirituality in your own unique way? Should we say TV is not religious, when somebody may have that appreciation?
A frye- You've picked up on the tension. But as schools teach alternatives, will the ideal be lost? Educationally, it's best to teach openly about all the options, from the ideal at the top all the way down. But unfortunately, our educational system is far from ideal. Too many kids would simply learn that the ideal is not for everyone, and immediately lose sight of it forever. I would recommend parents and Rebbeim speaking to students individually about their interests, and how those can be used to strengthen their faith.
PC - I like your Rabbi. Your point of identifying brainless activities rings true. Anything that inspires us to think (some would say to feel would qualify too) has the potential to lift us up. Unfortunately, what is brainless for one may be thought provoking to another. And that disparity is what creates the problem. In the Modern Orthodox community, people take advantate of varied opportunities for growth in ways that don't bring them closer to Gd. In the Yeshivish community, people forbid these same opportunities, preventing those below the threshold of the ideal from harnessing them. Nobody seems to have found the middle-ground yet.
E - While new to you, this is the difficulty. Both of the outlets you've identified are seen in the Yeshivish world as Kosher, but treif. They're not a place where you shouldn't go, but they are relegated as kids places. While you certainly could grow from them, the common perception is that you could do better, ie by learning Torah. By occupying yourself with a ballgame, you are seen as admitting that you are incapable of higher growth. Most people are afraid of this perception and play along. It may be true, but people think higher of you if you tell jokes in a Beis Medrash than if you ponder the miracle of fish for hours.
FG - You're right on. Just curious, what role do you think a parent can play in presenting that middle ground as a viable alternative? Especially when every parent wants their kid to be "Number 1", how do you not push your kid to pursue that activity that is viewed as the hobby of the pure (learning)?
Prag - Frum people definitely know how to loosen up, even while avoiding places antithetical to Torah. But when do those diversions grow into distractions? At a certain point, winding down with a board game is just as much wasted time as going to a bar, albeit without all the lewd connotations.
MS - Listen to Erica, my in house, yiddish expert. As in "Arbeit Macht Frei."
LB - Funny, that has always been a pet peeve, although I never connected it to the idea of alternative hobbies for Bochurim. It's actually a good example of how a kosher distraction (saving lives) for somebody who can't learn all day can become as treif as hanging out at a bar (when it just becomes a competition for cooler police toys and getting out of speeding tickets). We have to appreciate that joining Hatzolah or staring at fish can be a worthwhile endeavor - if you're doing it for the right reasons.
MH - I think you've pinpointed the common perception. But is it right? What if somebody goes birdwatching because they enjoy tracing the beauty of creation? What if they enjoy doing Chessed? We frown on non-Torah activity. But what is the limit between wasting one's time and finding spirituality in your own unique way? Should we say TV is not religious, when somebody may have that appreciation?
A frye- You've picked up on the tension. But as schools teach alternatives, will the ideal be lost? Educationally, it's best to teach openly about all the options, from the ideal at the top all the way down. But unfortunately, our educational system is far from ideal. Too many kids would simply learn that the ideal is not for everyone, and immediately lose sight of it forever. I would recommend parents and Rebbeim speaking to students individually about their interests, and how those can be used to strengthen their faith.
PC - I like your Rabbi. Your point of identifying brainless activities rings true. Anything that inspires us to think (some would say to feel would qualify too) has the potential to lift us up. Unfortunately, what is brainless for one may be thought provoking to another. And that disparity is what creates the problem. In the Modern Orthodox community, people take advantate of varied opportunities for growth in ways that don't bring them closer to Gd. In the Yeshivish community, people forbid these same opportunities, preventing those below the threshold of the ideal from harnessing them. Nobody seems to have found the middle-ground yet.
E - While new to you, this is the difficulty. Both of the outlets you've identified are seen in the Yeshivish world as Kosher, but treif. They're not a place where you shouldn't go, but they are relegated as kids places. While you certainly could grow from them, the common perception is that you could do better, ie by learning Torah. By occupying yourself with a ballgame, you are seen as admitting that you are incapable of higher growth. Most people are afraid of this perception and play along. It may be true, but people think higher of you if you tell jokes in a Beis Medrash than if you ponder the miracle of fish for hours.
FG - You're right on. Just curious, what role do you think a parent can play in presenting that middle ground as a viable alternative? Especially when every parent wants their kid to be "Number 1", how do you not push your kid to pursue that activity that is viewed as the hobby of the pure (learning)?
Prag - Frum people definitely know how to loosen up, even while avoiding places antithetical to Torah. But when do those diversions grow into distractions? At a certain point, winding down with a board game is just as much wasted time as going to a bar, albeit without all the lewd connotations.
MS - Listen to Erica, my in house, yiddish expert. As in "Arbeit Macht Frei."
LB - Funny, that has always been a pet peeve, although I never connected it to the idea of alternative hobbies for Bochurim. It's actually a good example of how a kosher distraction (saving lives) for somebody who can't learn all day can become as treif as hanging out at a bar (when it just becomes a competition for cooler police toys and getting out of speeding tickets). We have to appreciate that joining Hatzolah or staring at fish can be a worthwhile endeavor - if you're doing it for the right reasons.
Please!- The Yeshivish ban on most things entertainment may be based in dedicating one's life to higher purposes, but in reality only the "cream" of the yehsivish world actually practices with that in mind. As for the rest of them, they manage to waste their time other ways. You don't need to see a movie or watch seinfeld to waste time. Most Yehsivish people stay away from those elements out of mere cultural and societal pressure. They still waste time all day. We call them Hochers. They Hoch around all day. They have cell phones, and radios, they're in Hatzoloh, they go to weddings, and they sit around on Main street restaraunts. They don't watch TV b/c that will ruin their shiduch later or will prevent their kids from attending the prefered tax front, I mean Yeshiva. My Stamar friend always tells me "they don't learn, the lein." meaning, they couldn't even keep pace with an MTA bichur- they just read the words. I don't blame them. If I knew at 11 that what I was doing all day was all I was going to do for my entire life- I might grow a little lazy as well. It's time some of these folks educated themselves and lowered their standards enough to attend YU. I know I'm not going to be writing checks to "Yeshivas Beis XYZ" when I'm a laywer as I saw my Dad do as a child when they showed up our door. If we're so treif- go knock on doors in Boro Park.
# posted by : March 09, 2006 3:10 PM
: March 09, 2006 3:10 PM
Anon - I agree that the byproduct of the Yeshivish policy of looking down on non-holy pursuits has created an unintended consequence of a whole bummy culture. Are we better or worse off having guys do Hatzolah instead of watching TV?
I think the secular education issue is slightly different, but I think those that end up pursuing careers (regardless of the educational steps they took in the process) don't end up being looked down on, so those that just jump in and go into the workforce shouldn't feel they are up against a wall. And when the Schnorrs come knocking, make sure you at least take the time to assess whether a decent number of the supportees are actually very holy people.
I think the secular education issue is slightly different, but I think those that end up pursuing careers (regardless of the educational steps they took in the process) don't end up being looked down on, so those that just jump in and go into the workforce shouldn't feel they are up against a wall. And when the Schnorrs come knocking, make sure you at least take the time to assess whether a decent number of the supportees are actually very holy people.
DG - it's a huge problem. Frum girls are totally left out of the mix. Guys should be learning. But girls, even the frummest aren't asked to do much, other than say some Tehillim. So the rest of the time? It seems while Kollel guys are reading Divrei Torah's on Shabbos afternoon their wives are reading People magazine. And this isn't seen as a problem. So you've definitely picked up on that. It is such a shame that idle chatter is the only opportunity we leave frum girls with. I'd take a girl who can discuss politics and philosophy any day. The no guys thing may be unnatural, but when it comes to killing time, better that guys and girls aren't mixed. Because Lashon Hora should be the worst thing you do when you're bored...
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