Why Josh Can't Be Left Alone

Uhhh....Maybe it's just me, but I think Shabbos robes are more tznius than a lot of outfits you'll see frum women wearing.
 

Jewboy,

He wasn't talking about tznius the way you're defining. It goes without saying that they are tznius...very tznius in fact. The point Josh is making is simply that we should not be coming to the shabbos table in our 'tznius' pajamas. It's shabbos for heaven sakes! We're standing before Hashem...don't be so lazy and get dressed!!! Just as if you were having a meal with a Rosh Yeshiva you wouldn't dare come to the table in your robe, how much more so in front of Hashem on His special day!
 

re robes - although very amusing, your description of the robes is incorrect. in reality they're more like hostess gowns - made of velvet or silk and very dressy.
 

I have to say that I don't like the robe things, they remind me of a little girl's nightgown, and most of the poeple I know who wear them change out of them before shabbas dinner and such, you know wear them around while getting the house ready. I also think that getting dressed maybe a little nicer even, not less, on Shabbat is something I enjoy and is part of Shabbat to me at least. I also think there is a place and time for everything, a reason why jeans aren't appropriate at a wedding is the same reason why people who wear bikinis don't like coming to the door in a towel.
Despite this, could understand why someone would wear the robe. After cleaning and cooking for shabbat all day, the last thing I imagine wanting to do is pull on stockings or nylons, they are fantastically uncomfortable in the best of situations. People don't like getting dressed up a guess and think maybe the fad will make up for inappropriateness, perhaps.
 

While I personally abhore robes and never wear one, I see the practicality in them and I've seen many a host who define regality in one. I view it as a 'housecoat' not a robe. When one is a mother and host, tending to children and serving guests- she needs to be comfortable doing just so.
I've seen housecoats for outrageous prices. And I even met a girl who wore her shabbos robe to her friend's wedding- it was that fancy.........
just my 2 cents.
 

ahem, may i interject....some shabbos robes are actually very beautiful...mine is simple, with t zipper down, the BACK, and excuse me, no flower, thank you very much, but it is NOT bathrobe fabric. Many look like dresses, mine fits in there. Whay's the issue if it looks like a dress? (although a bathrobe is not okay....) i see your point tho with the black hat thing- actually a major cause of the shabbos table discord- he says its too hot, she says its too cold.....and while i personally would not go for a walk in my shabbos robe, if i lived in a city where it would be acceptable to do so, i most certainly would. just my $0.02.
 

oh, and one more thing- i wont answer the door in my sweatsuit, bc i dont own one, but since i wear a sweatshirt and a tznius skirt to bed, as well as knee socks, i would most certainly answer the door in that- its not fashionable or even matching, necessarily, but hey, its tznius, and theyre pajamas.....
 

Inmymind- I hear your point, but I think this is something that need not be criticized. Most of these robes are pretty nice and have become the standard for women to wear on Friday night. Taking a walk in them seems a bit strange, but perhaps there are plsces where this is routine as well.
 

ooooooooooooooooooh, nooooooooooooooooooooooooo, josh... our first shalom bayis problem...

so many issues here to disagree with, my head is spinning.

it's like listening to scare america radio- i don't even know where to start...

but here's at least one item of food for thought: since i -as most frum women-have spent most (pretty close to all, in fact)-of my married life either pregnant, newly postpartum, nursing, or pregnant AGAIN, I WOULD OFFER THAT THE SHABBOS ROBE SOLVES THE THORNY ISSUE (sorry, didn't notice caps lock was on, and am too lazy to go back and change- i am not yelling!) of having shabbos clothes, which are generally more tailored and more expensive than weekday, in 74 sizes so i can both breathe and not have to wear suspenders at the same meal. for weekday, i can get away with a more shleppy look- most weekday stuff with elastic waists and shapeless materials until i am big enough to dig out the maternity wardrobe. but on shabbos, when one needs a more refined look of clothing, a pretty robe, saved all week long for shabbos so it stays nice,is a much better idea than an ill-fitting shabbos outfit that used to be in style 4 sizes and 2 pregnancies ago when i last fit into it...

so, i guess what i am saying is, please give all of us old flabby married ladies a break. and just know that i will now be wearing a robe all shabbos when you are here- just on principle. but you are similarly invited to buy and wear special velvet pajamas to the shabbos meals, if you would be more comfortable...
 

I know I'm a little late, but I have to get involved because I am opinionated about this subject.

First things first, lots of girls love to wear shabbos robes. It's an easy look, a zip-on "finished" style that is both practical and its' own kind of stylish. Shabbos robes are a really fascinating part of frum culture, and I like the thought of them. Think about it...we rush and get everything ready, bathe small children (some of us) and do last minute things. We have a fast shower, are grateful if we remember conditioner, and then think "What am I supposed to put on?" That is where shabbos robes come in. Two seconds later, there is suddenly time to put on makeup. I like that there's a frum girl thing to wear real makeup and a shabbos robe. The idea is infinitely shabbosdik to me.

All that being said, I don't wear robes. I don't feel dressed and, though some of them are beautiful, I like to feel that I have put myself together. Makeup, jewelry, and a sparkly robe is a wonderful combination and speaks to me as "shabbos," but I don't feel ready when I'm wearing one.

It's when you find yourself in a robe-wearing household that you feel weird dragging on stockings, though.
 

It's not "putting on airs" or faking when putting on a skirt for a frum man. Noone has a problem with a non religious person putting on a kippa if they come to shul or if they go to a shabbos meal or something. It's just a respectful thing to do.

There is nothing bathrobe like ot muumuu like about a shabbos robe. It's a dress, a comfortable dress for Shabbos. You would not use it to dry off after a shower, you would not sleep in it, its exclusive function is to be shabbosdik and comfortable at the same time. I see nothing disrespectful about being comfortable at my shabbos table.

As far as the men being uncomfortable in their hats and stuff, i feel very sorry for you, but why don't you try always wearing long sleeves, high necks and socks in summer? Why don't you try wearing skirts when you're going out for a jog? I think it's ok for us to get a break every once in a while.

-rebel w/o a clue
 

i'm not a fan of the phenomena either. admittingly the first thing i do when i walk into my house is lose the skirt and hang out in my lounging clothes, usually soccer/bball shorts and a tshirt. but in honor shabbos kodesh, even if hanging out just with the roomies, i will dress up at least a little. sheesh, put on a fricken stretchy black skirt. just not those ugly $200 robes. yuck.
 

Wow, so much to say. (and i never write on these things) I was on a date once and the guy actually said to me, "you look like the shabbos robe type" (one of many funny lines from my many crazy dates.) That comment actually made think about the whole shabbos robe idea. To tell you the truth, i hate them. i dont find them comfortable, pretty or anythgin positive. At the fri. night table, all the women in my family sit around in robes and I get dressed for shabbos, it makes me feel better. The whole shabbos experience, shul, davening, getting dressed is what makes the day unique. (To be honest, i have spent many shabbosim in pjs but it just doesnt feel the same.)
However if one feels that the robe is what makes it feel like shabbos for them, then go ahead and wear it in you house. I totally agree with you Josh about wearing them outside. It is definitely not OK.I just spent yom tov in brooklyn and proper atire for shabbos afternoon walk is a robe, i don't get it at all.

One a separate note, chanie, you sleep in a long skirt? now thats taking tznius to a whole new level..wow.
 

one more thing, to answer your question about why frum women won't answer the door in a sweat suit...some do. Its a matter of comfort level for them. if someone who normally wears only skirts doesnt feel comfortable in front of men wearign pants, even a baggy sweat suit, they she'll put on a skirt. If someone else doesnt care, then sweats it is. I dont think you can make a generalization about that.
 

i've wondered the same thing for a while. shabbas robes are basically pajamas and i don't believe that they are tznius in the least(especially since most are very form fitting).
 

joshy... what's the point here? are you saying that you don't like them and you don't want your wife to wear one? or are you judging the folks that choose to wear them? expressing an opinion is fine... but it sounds to me a bit like you are crossing that fine line into being judgemental.... not to mention the fact that you are talking about what *women* wear... is it cuz you have you look at them that it offends you, or is there some principle being expresssed here about dictating what women should or shouldn't wear?

it all sounds kind whiney to me.
 

First, I want to apologize to everyone for not having posted for awhile. But more importantly, I want to apologize for not commenting regularly, both on my blog and on all the others. I have been reading all the usual suspects' blogs, but I haven't been doing much browsing at home, where I do all of my writing. I appreciate all of your ideas, and just know that I'm grateful that you're keeping up with me. A special shout out to Erica, Shosh, and Bec for staying by me despite my absence. I just haven't had the urge to do nothing but blog at home. I guess I'm defective.

Second, I want to amend my post slightly. I framed the idea of being dressed with decency as projecting an image of readiness. I feel that a better motivation would be simply to respect the people we deal with. When conducting business, we show that we take our partners seriously by dressing up. When we open our doors, we make people feel that we are prepared for them.

Now, back to you...

JB - I don't know enough about Shabbos robe styles to comment on their relative modesty. But whether frum women find ways to abuse the values of Tznius even within the accepted frameworks of "appropriate" dress is a whole different post.

IMM - Well said. My post as two distinct points, and the Shabbos robe wasn't intended as a Tznius violation.

The main point that I will stress to most comments is the same - Halacha defines appropriate dress on Shabbos as being that which we would wear to a wedding.

MH - Thank you for sharing a different kind of Shabbos robe. If there really are fancy Shabbos robes out there, what differentiates them from a dress? For me, the important thing is that if you wouldn't wear it anywhere you'd wear a dress, how can you wear it as a "special" outfit for Shabbos?

Carla - Right? Doesn't it seem not in spirit with Shabbat? I can understand why people would wear them, but I can understand why people lounge around in boxers and wife-beaters. But at least they're honest with the outward-respect their priorities convey.

Anon - You bring up that the definition of a Shabbos robe is unclear. Obviously, they've been spruced up a bit, so I'm not surprised by the sticker price. Halacha expects that we dress on Shabbos the way we'd dress at a wedding. That is the level of respect we need to have for the day. My problem is that if you wouldn't wear your robe to shul, how can you view it specifically as a special Shabbos garment. The fact that your friend was able to wear hers to a wedding shows that maybe her style was nice enough for Shabbos. But then what is a Shabbos robe and how is it different from a dress? And if they wouldn't wear their Shabbos robe somewhere, such as outside or to shul, than it would feel to me like they aren't treating Shabbos with the respect that it deserves. I'm not against comfort, but I don't believe that our comfort should trump our spiritual ideals.

More to come...Honestly, I didn't think this topic would stir up such passion.
 

T - I agree that Tznius is a sexually-charged Halacha, if you will. But for the individual, the obligation rests on the spiritual modesty, not on what we do to the opposite sex. We are each obligated to guard what we see, but that doesn't mean others should have to live according to our depravities. It's nice to be sensitive, but it's each of our jobs to control what we see. In a religious world, everyone would be covered up, but in the absence of that perfection, we each have to learn to control ourselves. But to the point, Tznius is about recognizing that Gd is everywhere, and we have to dress accordingly. You can't go skimpy on the king.

Chanie - Definitely pushes the line of what is a dress. It's not about how fancy it is. Is it the zipper? If in the Frum velt it becomes ok to wear a Shabbos robe to a certain place, does that make it normal? If all the Vaibeleh do it, but all the non-Jewish neighbors think we're walking around in pajamas, is it ok? To your second comment, my first impression is to be very impressed. You obviously have internalized the concept of Tznius even when you are in your private quarters. That is the idea of modesty in front of Gd. Wearing your knee-socks all day long is just a continuation for living in Gd's presence, not a fear that a guy might peak. I find you very inspiring in this way (and in so many other ways, but I'll try and put that on your blog). But on the other hand, I do wonder if your level is normative Tznius. Not in the "do most Frum people" do it sense. If you know me, you know I don't care what people do, but what Gd wants. But normative in the "Halachic ideal" sense. Shulchan Aruch clearly assumes people slept in the nude (see Hilchos Hashkamas Haboker and Hilchos Krias Shma). So it is definitely Lifnim M'Shuras HaDin (true Chassidus!!!), but I guess the difference whether it is required or not. But definitely an interesting thought. I wonder what your future husband will say (I"YH).

JB 2 - I find it fascinating that something non-Halachic could become a norm. I don't view Judaism as a culture, but as a religion. Everything we do is to bring us closer to Gd. But saying this random made up garment has become a norm is just as weird as if all frum people wore shoes made of cushy foam because we do so much more walking than non-frum people. It's just odd that we'd develop a sub-culture. But I guess I also find Jewish pop music and art to be signs of a Jewish world that is so self-absorbed it doesn't even take a step back to see how silly it looks from outside. Even in a Charedi world that proudly is different from the non-Jewish world, it is in being different, not in wearing pajamas to formal events.

BB - You're always beautiful, even if your size changes. I'm not against clothing that always fits. But don't they have non-robes that accomplish this? Just for the record, I went on Ebay to see what I could find...

PC - Always on BB's side. But with more edge. I'm not denying that robes are more comfortable. But how far do we go in decreasing Kavod Shabbos for comfort? My point in saying that men are fully dressed wasn't to say that they suffer, but that they adhere to strict standards of decency, despite the discomfort. Presumably that shows that the Kavod of Shabbos is more important (I'm sure a male Shabbos robe could easily be invented otherwise). But why are we more lenient on women than on men. Part of what bothers me is the idea that the frum world doesn't expect the same thing spiritually from women as from men. Why different standards?

Sh - Well put! There is definitely a Tznius difference in meeting another person on neutral ground and in their world. I agree that a non-Jew wearing a yarmulke in a synagogue is "when in Rome," but if a non-Jew meets a Jew in a park, he hardly needs to put on a show. Same for Tznius. Sure I expect a women to throw on some different clothing when visiting the Kotel, but if she's meeting me for coffee, then should I ask her to make Berachos too? And, Shosh, only you could take my obscene comparisons and take them one fabulous step further!

Hmmm, still more to go...but the person I wrote this for still hasn't checked in yet. I'll be back.
 

oish, just read the comments since my last one earlier....first of all, thank you for informing me, cuz i never knew that little piece of halacha that u should wear what u would wear to a wedding...yich, i hate dressing up, and if i could wear my robe (or my comfortable shlumpy uniform, for that matter) to a wedding without drawing attention to myself, you bet i would!
if all the neighbors think were walking around in pajamas- hm, i dont think that my shabbos tobe quite looks like their idea of pajamas, but i certainly see what youre saying and you have a valid point. if my mother hadnt drilled it into my head that not always could i just do what i wanted, but i also had to do what society expects...shux, you think i care how ppl dress? my whole school dresses differently than me, but whatever...im going to do what i think is right.

on a slightly differnt note, i disagree with the statement that the frum world doesnt demand as much spiritually from the women as from the men. 'a yids gashmiyus is ruchniyus' 'another yids gashmiyus is your ruchniyus'- 2 quotes from the rebbe, and on the otehr hand....omg, i could get into a whole thing on mah and ban, but im not sure you want that, so im gonna sit tight.....

and yes, i wear a skirt to bed, raychee, but no, i dont wear tights to sleep, i wear knee sox, lol.
 

Oy- I'm so sad I'm checking in so late ion the game! I love the topic of tznius -mostly because every Jew really deals with it (however subconsciously) every moment, every day. (including nights -props to chanie for your "pajama choice"-I tried it about twice, but it didn't stick)
Anyway, the whole shabbos/fancy/comfort/tznius thing is really very individualistic. What I would wear to a wedding depends on 1)whose sedding, 2)which city, 3)which hall, 4)the weather, 5)my mood, and 6)what other people are wearing. I'm being totally honest here. And others would have different answers. So, obviously, what I should wear on shabbos differs, perhaps, from what others should. One person's shabbos robe is another person's nightgown and another person's evening gown and another person's office suit.

I'm not saying that anything goes, whatever you want. I am saying that every individual needs to decide what for them would honor shabbos' level of kedusha and beauty, and would be comfortable enough so that they enjoy what they're wearing and feel good in it, etc. Hmmm, on that note, although I still have a lot to say on the rest of the post, have a good shabbos! (even tho its wednesday!)
 

Wow, nice one Josh. I also didn't think this would stir up so much controversy. Here's what I was going to say before I read all the comments:

Thank you!

Now that I've read all the comments, I'll comment with them in mind. Ali and I have discussed Shabbos robes a number of times. She has a Lubavitch cousin, with whom she used to spend every Shabbos after becoming religious, and this cousin has a Shabbos robe or two. So we've had a quite a few conversations on the issue.

I think it's wrong. Plain and simple. For all of the reasons you outlined. There is the Halachic issue, requiring one to dress on Shabbos as one would to a wedding. The exception, I believe, is that one may be able to sleep and lounge on Shabbos in less formal clothing, so long as the lounging clothes for Shabbos are a step up from regular lounging clothes. I generally (90% of the time if not more) do not get out of my Shabbos clothes all day, except if I decide to take a nap. There are exceptions, such as if someone is excessively tired or under the weather.

Basically it's an honor system. If you were to spend 25 hours with the President (if you're a Democrat pretend Kerry or someone you support had won - this is about the office, not the person), you would dress up for the formal meetings, the official state dinner and luncheon, as well as the afternoon meal, even if it is only cocktails. You would sleep in pajamas, but you would make sure they didn't have rips in the knee, and that they were clean and didn't smell like BO or dirty laundry, just in case you ran into the president on your way to the bathroom to brush your teeth.

Getting dressed up on Shabbos is not about impressing people at Shul, it's about honoring the day and HaShem. He is our King. He is THE King. You have the opportunity to have Him in your home with you for 25 hours, honoring His creation of the world and His redemption of us from Egypt. Shabbos is our sign that we believe He did these things. ("Os Hi Le'Olam...") That's why intentionally and rebelliously violating Shabbos carries with it a penalty of death (with proper witnesses and warning, etc). It's a rejection of these principles, and hence a rejection, Has VeShalom, of HaShem. Giving honor to HaShem and Shabbos is more than appropriate. The meals are a function of Shabbos. They are far more important than showing up at Shul. (Obviously men have an obligation to Daven with a Minyan, and women too have some level of obligation to Daven, the extent of which is hotly debated itself). Women are NOT exempt from Kiddush or the meals as time-bound Mitzvos. They are, therefore, not exempt from dressing formally for them.

How we dress for these occasions is a funny thing within Halachah. It's objective and subjective at the same time. It's what YOU would wear in the most formal of situations. The rest of the day is more lax, but not a free for all either. I would not go for a walk on Shabbos afternoon in shorts and a t-shirt. I do not remove my Shabbos clothes when I sit and read on the couch then either. I kick off my shoes, take off my tie, and sometimes unbutton the top two buttons of my shirt, but the clothes stay on. (The jacket usually comes of during the meal after HaMotzi, although I don't advocate that). But, again, there are exceptions (summers in DC are horribly muggy, and I might dress down if my wife insists on going for a walk, while I would otherwise prefer to stay in our air-conditioned apartment), and, as I said, what is appropriate is a personal judgment, but I do feel that people need to raise their level of committment in this area in particular. It's about Mesiras Nefesh. There is a Halachah, and it is based on a fundamental principle of showing Kavod to G-d. How dare we show up to dinner with the King, dressed in anything but our best clothes? After all, do we not serve the best food on our best china? Even when we are alone, Ali and I set the table and eat at least two courses. It's Shabbos! So why is what we wear different?

Don't tell me about how expensive they are or how nice you think they look, or what material they are made of. Don't even tell me that some women (even yourself) wear them outside for a walk. Very wealthy people wear very luxurious lounge clothes, and the fact that Shabbos robes may cost $200 and be made of silk and be beautiful only makes it ideal for Shabbos lounging, much more appropriate than sweats. But not for the meals. Not for Davening. Not for Shul (not that I've ever seen anyone wear one to Shul, which I think bolsters my point just a little).
 

okay, a few salient points, in no particular order:

how silly to say that Hashem expects less from women (or any derivation of this)- women's avodas Hashem that keeps them busy just about every second is one of the main reasons that robes are such a mechiyah. it's all well and good to wear a cute skirt, or a well-tailored suit, but anyone who has tried picking up a wriggly toddler in a suit, or having kids on your lap in a non-ankle-length skirt, or has had to nurse a baby is some fancy shabbos get-up will weep with joy at the thought of a robe. it's pretty, it flows, it moves with you, it's long enough to get shlepped on by the toddler but not fall down, and big enough to hide little hand prints or nose prints, or whatever is the backbone of the aishes chayil's true Avodas Habayis. it's very nice for a man to sit like a king at his shabbos table, singing and saying divrei torah in his dry-clean ony suit. it's completely another to make and serve the meal, juggle the kids, entertain the guests, clean everything up, and get ready for the next sitting with a smile on your face. even if the husband is extremely helpful and tzaddik-like (like my blogbrit!!!)the woman's life just demands a little more stretch (literally and figuratively)- and it's not because she has less to fulfil on shabbos than a man, it's davka because she has more! so i'm very happy for all of you overly judgemental singles or newly marrieds out there who are machpid to wear high heels or serve two courses or whatever l'kavod shabbos, but until you've walked a mile in my shabbos robe, be careful what words you spew out, for you may be forced to eat them later...

and do you know what's NOT tznius? a woman cramming herself into her shabbos outfit when she is 2 -1/2months pregnant and can't put on maternity because of ayin hara, but her buttons are popping and her skirt is either all stretched out or unbuttoned and held together with a safety pin, and if you didn't know she was actually expecting you would think she had gotten dressed out of the salvation army's dumpster. not very shabbosy, either. yes, a rare few women can pull it all off. they can wear dry clean only cream-colored clothes and $10,000 sheitals and make 84 kugels and only gain 1 pound the whole pregnancy. but those women are few and far between, and they sure don't live in my neighborhood...

and by the way, it is really stupid to say that the material or the decoration do not make a garment fancy. would you actually say that a velvet skirt is not dressier than a denim skirt, even if they are both the same cut? or that a silk shirt is no fancier than a cotton button down? same shirt, but it is EXACTLY the material that makes the difference- more special and refined garments are made of more special and refined materials. and those few sparkles that people joking blow off? well, that's the same as wearing diamond stud earings versus small plastic trianlges- there really is something fancier about a little shine...

all women i know who have shabbos robes keep them special for shabbos. and just like they wouldn't meet the president in their shabbos robe (maybe, maybe not...), they certainly wouldn't either wear their shabbos robe to clean the house, or to sleep in (although many certainly sleep in weekday robes!), or to do any other menial or weekday things. so there is a setting apart and a making special for the shabbos robe alone. and if the goyim think that you look like you are wearing pajamas, who cares? since when do jewish standards rise or fall based on the non-jewish neighbors? if you cover your hair with a tichel or a hat and your neighbors think you are just having a bad hair day and being shleppy, should you not cover your hair? when people used to wear straw-looking sheitals, did they care if the non-jews thought they looked crazy? no, they followed halacha to the best of their ability, and did the mitzva to the highest standard they could, and tried their hardest to make themselves beautiful in a halachically acceptable way.

so what are you bringing me from ebay, josh?
 

I can barely keep up with you guys...

Sara - You speak both of how a robe can be entirely Shabbosdik or exactly the opposite. I'll take from your words that it is a personal viewpoint of what is Shabbosdik. And obviously this is a subjectively defined Halacha or idea, so as long as people are acting in a manner of honor and not out of personal comfort, I would agree that they are welcoming the Shabbos appropriately. How many sparkles on a robe make it nicer than a dress is up to the fashionistas not me, but in my mind, if it is truly so Mechubadik, a Shabbos robe should be wearable anywhere. Maybe they should just call them Shabbos dresses. However, where you are fascinated by how frum women have built up their own unique clothing piece, I am deeply skeptical. Judaism is a religion not a culture. Unlike Indian Saris (at least as far as I know), our dress isn't simply a fashion that has developed out of a distinct culture, but rather should be based on our religious ideals. That the frum world is making its own trends independent of Halacha tells me that something may be lacking in the values within that world. That is a whole other post, but the quick comparison is being the secular culturism rampant in other streams of Judaism, and whether that socio-cultural "Jewish" identity is becoming the main force in Orthodoxy as well. In this case, if Frum women feel frum because of a garment that is popular in the frum world but isn't based on Halachic ideals, then we have to ask what is leading our communal standards. It's possible to be isolated from secular influences but at the same time miss the point. I'm not saying robes go against Halacha. I just don't understand them. Perhaps they aren't really "robes" and are actually dresses, just marketed as robes to emphasize their comfort, and are actually infinitely respectful. But then you'd wear them outside... So where do the robes come from? How long have they been around? Are they a European/New York/Israel thing?

ARWAC - Obviously there is a point where respect for others dictates Tznius (crossing between the two points of my post). You wouldn't answer the door in a towel, go to a wedding in sweats, or a shul in a tank top (in some communities). That is about being decent. But being modest, throwing on a skirt, is different. If you are meeting in a frum place, of course you'd do it to fit in and be appropriate. But if he was coming to your house? Why should you dress up? If you feel that it's something you would wear out - you're dressed decently. My point is just that you can't fake Tznius, because it's for you and Gd, not the other person. They have to do their part, and, yes, being in a frum world makes it easy for them, but I still hold that the focus of tznius is a personal one and not about teasing others. Sorry, I think I got off point. As far as personal comfort, I'm not saying that being frum should be a specifically uncomfortable decision. But I don't go out in sweatpants or jeans, because I don't think those pieces show enough respect for the world around me. I do wear long sleeves, high necks, and socks all year round. I'm not asking any more from women, just that their decisions should be based on the same ideals as men. Obviously, it will be different when applied (ie is a denim skirt like wearing jeans). So maybe a Shabbos robe is fancy and pretty. And comfortable. So you get it all. Or maybe we're making our clothing decisions based on different value systems.

Sus - I appreciate a person who keeps it real. Hopefully we all find a way to dress up for Shabbos. But that raises an interesting point. Now that I know about Shabbos robes, is there a non-Shabbos version that I don't know about? Do frum women wear a more low key version of this outfit the rest of the week and this is their step up for Shabbos?

Anyways, I'm falling behind. Some of you have put in more follow up comments than I have. Just so long as nobody bans me from their Shabbos table as a result.
 

I already said my piece, but I just remembered my childhood knowlegde of shabbos robes was limited to the brooklyn women in the bungalow colony wearing flowery sheets wrapped around them while shmoozing in front of their bungalows, and my older sister's stunningly georgeous shabbos "dress". It was made of slinkyish black velvet and i used to steal it out of her closet to take with me on sleepovers so I could play dress up with it. Of course, as a princess!!!

So there are different types...

Oh I wish she still had it now so I could steal it and play shabbos princess....(sigh)
 

ive said my piece too, but i just want to clarify- my pajama minhag is not just about tznius, its also about if moshiach comes while im asleep, then i want to be able to get up and go! (also another reason for putting negel vasser by your bed, btw...)
 

I'm still going to try and respond to everyone, but hopefully without rehashing anything or offending anyone. I appreciate everyone's viewpoint, and always try and personally address each comment.

Raychee - Welcome, it's amazing that this topic is what finally brought you out in blogworld ;) I agree that what each of us find to be special for Shabbos is what is important. I just don't see a difference between inside and outside. It's a consistency thing. Like when a woman opens the door. Be consistent with your Tznius comfort level. And, yeah, you should get to know Chanie. She's inspiring.

Timmie - I didn't know if you would see this post or not, but you should know that I wrote the title with you in mind. Sadly, you didn't critique the linguistic foundations of my piece. Oh well.

Anon - I'm not judging, just trying to undertand. The robes are a non-issue to me. It's the underlying details that I find interesting. I like understanding why others choose how they do. That is the fundamental beauty of blogging - encountering differing viewpoints. I'm definitely not questioning people's decisions, just listening to their rationale. My philosophy is there are no bad answers in life, just people who don't ask questions.

Brit - You speak beautifully of the praise due to the Aishes Chayil for her work in making the Shabbos what it is. But based on a lot of what people have written, it would seem that instead of questioning why women can't dress up with all the energy they're spending just keeping up, we should ask why their husbands aren't taking half the burden. Why should the men be sitting in their "crowns" at the head of the table singing and speaking Torah, defining the spirit of shabbos, while the women sweat in the kitchen or with the kids, to the point that they have to wear robes to breath. Doesn't that make the Shabbos robe some kind of slave outfit? The woman has to wear a smock to do the dirty work, to enable the husband to sit like an angel? I'm not a feminist, but why aren't they sharing the burden?

Chanie - You bring up good points. Obviously, what is Kavodik is subjective, and depends on common standards of dress. Which is a hard idea for somebody like me to accept, since I'm always saying people should do what's right, regardless of what society says. But I think here, society is right. And if society is right, there is no Mitzva to go against them. If all of society went out in their underwear, we'd go against them. But if they all wear suits to wedding, I don't think going against that makes sense. But once we accept a standard of dress, we have to keep it, inside our homes and out. At least for Shabbos. As far as demands on women, I definitely don't think halacha demands less. But from what I've seen, the frum community does. Frum men should learn in Kollel. Frum women go shopping all day. That isn't the ideal. But it is common even in prominent Lakewood families. It's not right. So I like to point out possible examples of this when I see them. So I'm curious if the Shabbos robe is an example. As far as the teachings of the Rebbe that you mention, I don't know what they are. But if you can teach it, I want to hear. You write with such passion, about a whole world of HKBH that I don't know about. Your writing inspires me every day, and if you have anything, any idea that you wish to share, please do so, on my blog or yours. If only I can gather a few of your sparks. I don't know if the sleeping in skirts is common or not, but I love that you can define your own Avodas Hashem - and you set the bar higher!

Okee - It is definitely subjective, and an individual's ability to define their own definition of Kavod is important. But there are certain basic principles to work with. The parity between in the home and out being one of them. But of course, we can't ask more than for everybody to do their best!

Seth - Exactly. Way to bring out the spirit of the day.

T - I don't think Seth was trying to be pretentious or pasken. He was merely bringing out the background to his Shabbos clothes decision. You can agree or disagree with his sources. His point isn't to say Muttar or Assur, but that Halacha informs our decisions. What he or his wife does, is up to them, but that doesn't preclude anybody from sharing their opinion. That is what we are trying to do here. I highly doubt meant his comments with even the slightest amount of haughtiness, and I do think your personal response was out of line. You should apologize, even if you disagree.

Sh - Once again, thanks for your insight. It's just one of those issues where everybody has a different take. But sometimes I wonder if we just follow the crowd more than we make our own decisions.

BB - Deep breath. Note my response to your husband on women's roles. It is specifically because I don't think women have a different standard of Halachic expectation that they should have similar factors in choosing clothing (other than the maternity thing). I don't think they have to wear makeup and high heels, a la June Cleaver. Obviously from my perspective, I can't determine what you should do. That's why you're here providing your perspective. Who knows what will be in my house? I don't make any presumptions, but I do hope that I will factor in what I've said into my (or my wife's) ultimate decision. Obviously the fanciness of the fabric makes it more Shabbosdik. I do have to learn more about why these can't be worn in public. Why would frum women make up their own cultural clothing of a Shabbos robe, but all agree that it's not acceptable in public? That seems infinitely silly. If it's comfortable and fancy, where it all the time. If it's "in" to wear one at the table, can't the taboo be moved out of the home? Do you notice that I have a thing for consistency? Actually, I'm just praying I don't get my face kicked in when I come visit.

PC - You've expresed your perspective well!

EC - I will never understand how women can feel they need to pay rediculous amounts of money for a garment that they personally feel is unacceptable to wear outside. Do women spend this much money on underwear too? I'm guessing I should be afraid of that answer. It's going to be a long bachelorhood.

Okee - Thanks for the story! I guess robes are part of engendering creativity in our children!

Chanie - I never thought of that. I mean, obviously it's for Tznius, but you're saying that it's not about being Tznius in bed, but in case you have to get up quickly. Wow. But as far as Negel Vasser, Halacha is against you. But I'll have to think if your Tznius reason in bed makes more sense than mine (because of HKBH).

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Feel free to add anything new, but I wanted to wrap up the conversation with a few decisions of mine. From now on -

1) Elegant clothes made for the comfort, enjoyment, and honor of Shabbos Shall be known as Shabbos dresses.

2) Shabbos dresses shall be worn any where on Shabbos, including to shul, when visiting a king, or when answering the door.

3) Jewish men shall help Jewish women Erev Shabbos and on Shabbos with all the work, so that both can bask in the glory of Shabbos in the same way.
 

cant leave it like this....last things first- the negel vasser. its a minhag to put your negel vasser beside your bed, and its halacha that you should not walk four amos without first having washed.
second- frum women dont just go shopping all day, and most of the ones that i know try to learn and daven as much as they can.
i also totally alol
higree that its absolutely nuts to pay so much for something that you cant go out in...but then again, i hate spending money on clothes bichlall (see my tznius essay)
i seriously dont think that the frum world demands less of women than of men spiritually, and if you want i can get into mah and ban, but right now my brain is half sleeping, and soon it will be 3/4....so tonight is not the night, but i will definitely make a note to explain it someday, perhaps on my blog, perhaps on another blog....but it will most definitely make it there, hopefully someitme this coming week, since tomorrow is erev shabbos (and oish, i forgot yaaleh vyavo in maariv!),and i have a gemer on chumash shmos on monday....so later this coming week, iy"H, and ill drash some chassidus for you.
and by the way- i love your conclusion! it sure sounds good to me! avoda, avoda, i need more koach, why is my chayus running low...oh, and no, we dont spend nearly that muich on underwear.
btw, thanks for the compliment
 

ADVISORY: I could only read the first two and a half paragraphs of the post that follows my first comment before feeling the overwhelming need to comment again, so if I say something that is addressed later, forgive me.

Well, no offense taken, and not to name names, (and I'm really not going to), but it just happens to be the case that I am the one in the relationship who makes Shabbos. Yes, my wife helps in ways I cannot begin to give appropriate appreciation for in a blog comment, but if I did nothing, we would have no food. We would have no place to sit. We would have no place to eat. We would have no place to sleep. In short, we would have no Shabbos. I also do the majority of the cooking during the week. I also do most of the cleaning (and probably most of the mess-making, but still most of the cleaning) during the week.

No, we do not yet have children, but I do drive three of our neighbors' kids to school, I drive my wife to and from the Metro, I do the vast majority of the grocery shopping and the home maintenance that our building's maintenance guys can't or won't do for us, and I work. I also learn, I go to Minyan with regularity, and I am currently looking to add at least one new Chavrusa and/or one new Shi'ur to my regular routine. I'm trying to teach myself the Halachos of Safrus (being a scribe) so that I can learn the skill and receive "Kabballah" (not the Kabala you're thinking of) from one of the formost poskim of our generation. Some of these things are slow works in progress, but you get the gist. I'm a busy guy. And many are the weeks that I have missed the opportunity to shave, and sometimes even shower for Shabbos because we just weren't ready in time. Many more are the weeks when I've had to turn on the shower before Shabbos started so that I could finish getting the house ready, and after Shabbos started I could walk in to the already hot shower and at least get semi-clean using liquid soap.

Yet I still get dressed up in my best clothing - best, cleanest suit in the closet, most expensive, cleanest dress shirt available, dress shoes, tie, collar stiffeners, special belt for Shabbos/Yom Tov, cuff links unless no french-cuff shirts are clean, and cologne. I do this even when I miss Shul Friday night, which is most weeks. On those weeks I daven at home by myself, in "the library" (OK, the corner of our living room where our Sefarim are). And I sing Kabballas Shabbos and Ma'ariv, dressed up in my most expensive, fanciest, freshest, stiffest clothes, which may or may not be comfortable. I do this even when I have gotten 20 hours of sleep the entire week, like this past week, while my wife reads on the couch, waiting patiently for me to finish.

I'm not trying to impress anyone. I am merely trying to convey the image of someone who knows what it is like to be busy, to have a hectic schedule, and to be the one who is most responsible for whether or not Shabbos happens in the home. And with that qualification associated with my name now, I feel I can say that I do not feel that Shabbos robes are appropriate attire for the Shabbos table. Again, other times during Shabbos they are acceptable for lounging, certainly more so than sweats. But not for the institutional parts of Shabbos, such as Kiddush and the meals, when we are sitting with King, giving Him honor on His chosen day.

Oh, and I don't wear a black hat, nor do I think that makes a person more "frum" (which is a word I strongly dislike, as I've mentioned before on my own blog), or that it necessarily enhances a person's spiritual connection to G-d or enhances his Shabbos. (That word "necessarily" is in there for a reason, so don't just jump all over me if you wear a black hat, please - I have nothing against it and I have my reasons for not wearing one, although I have contemplated for many years whether and why I should or should not wear one; I'm sure if you wear one it gives you meaning, and Josh and others reading this who know me, and probably a few who don't, know what I'm talking about).

My point is, [no name], if you think I'm a chauvinist, and/or some closed-minded, black-hatter-type, who does whatever me rebbe tells me and never asks questions except when someone I have never met before is doing something contrary to my rebbe's teaching, which I probably misunderstood in the first place, and/or some other stereotype that you may have flung at me, you're mistaken. (PLEASE DON'T THINK I HAVE THESE STEREOTYPES!!) I think it's a shame when some people rush to judge others (particularly people they've never met). And I really think it's a terrible shame when people expose their own prejudices and biases to the world via the internet.

Also, please know that no offense was taken. I hope we can put this behind us and maybe even be friends.

Quick Devar Torah from the rabbi in Shul today: Most people think that the Parashah of Tzora'as is meant to teach us that we have to be able and willing to learn something from anyone. This is because the Torah teaches us that when someone gets Tzora'as, it is because he has spoken badly against someone else (Lashon HaRa'). He then has to go to the Kohen, a descendant of Aharon, the ultimate symbol of a peaceful person, a man who is described as "Ohev Shalom VeRodef Shalom" (one who loves peace and pursues peace). Even if the Kohen is an ignoramous, you still have to go to him. Not your rabbi, not the Gadol HaDor. You go to the Kohen, whether he knows anything or not. He is the only one who can tell you if you are clean. But these people who say this are mistaken. It's not that you have an obligation to learn from anyone. You have an obligation to learn and try to gain something and grow from everyone! Recognizing that anyone could potentially teach us something is not enough. We have to recognize that everyone CAN POSITIVELY teach us something.

(Tadir VeSheEino Tadir, Tadir Kodem, so...)Good night, Shavua' Tov, and Hodesh Tov. May we learn from Aharon HaKohen, and be Ohavei Shalom VeRodefei Shalom, and thereby merit the coming of Mashiah speedily and in our days.

P.S. to Josh - Sorry I'm domnating your blog lately. I'll try to keep it short and simple next time, Beli Neder. :-D
 

Short and sweet, like I said:

Please read Shosh's comments about someone with the nads to confront an exhausted mother about her wearing a Shabbos robe, getting socked by a big boned balabusta (or something to that effect).

I concur!
 

Chan - I wasn't questioning the Minhag of Negel vasser, just the reason you gave. The idea has nothing to do with Moshiach coming, but about not going 4 amos with tumah. As far as women in the frum world, I don't think Halacha expects any less from them, but sociologically I think we do. That doesn't mean there aren't very frum women out there. But it does mean that if a girl is pretty, she is considered a great catch for a Yorei Shamayim, even though she only worries about how pretty her shaitel is while he learns all day.

Ay - I like your take on the robes. I have no problem with those that feel comfortable answering the door in sweats and likewise thost that answer the door in a robe. But I don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking that a Shabbos robe is anything more than a beautiful set of sweats that is special for Shabbos. It's great for lounging around in, but would we wear our Shabbos sweats on a walk to the park? Just because something becomes accepted doesn't mean we can't question it.

Seth and T - I'm glad you guys have made up. Sometimes the points we make on here are very easily misunderstood. Unfortunately, we don't often bother to get the rest of the story and reevaluate people's words. But the fact that you guys were able to be so open minded gives me much Nachas from the madreiga of this blog community!
 

Josh:

Just discovered your blog and I completely agree that people miss the point when it comes to tzniut. Although I do own a "shabbos robe", I will not wear them around company for that same reason. I wouldn't entertain people in my PJs so why would I do it in a robe?

Will read more of your posts.
 

CYM - It is funny how trends in the Frum world seem to follow their own logic - or lack thereof. We don't take a step back and really think about what we are doing.