Tuesday, May 23, 2006
Coming Back
Spending a day in Brooklyn can be a little overwhelming for an out of town Ba'al Teshuva (born-again Jew). There are Jews everywhere. Jewish stores, Jewish signs, even Jewish license plates. It's a bit much.
But it made me think about the religious lifestyle I lead, and how much it is different from my brethren who have always been frum. Can my own religious lifestyle ever be the same as theirs? Would I want my lifestyle to be the same as theirs?
I have a lot of freedom to objectively observe Jewish Law, independently of how it is commonly practiced. That is good and it is bad. For example, I had to choose my own prononciation of Hebrew words, which forced me to learn what the differences are, where they come from, and how they are viewed in Halacha. I think most Frum from birth (FFB) people just take their parents' prononciations for granted, not realizing how much depth there is to even such a simple issue. Even if in the end we come out at the same place, I've gained so much in my approach.
Of course, there are also the many phases of Baal Teshuvakeit, from testing the waters to utter zealousness. I've gone through them all. I remember when I skipped any prayer that seemed remotely optional, even if it just had a smaller font. I also remember when I thought it was frummer to add in every page, paragraph, and bracket into my prayers. But there is a certain maturity that eventually develops.
By its very nature, my approach to Orthodoxy is at the same time fundamentalist and open minded. But can my perspective ever be the same as that of an always been frum person? Could I marry an FFB? I know many BTs go that route, and many stay amongst people from similar backgrounds. A lot of it results from the natural attraction between people of similar experience. But beyond that, can the wide-eyed evaluation of the BT coexist with the cautious eyes of the FFB? Do they balance each other out?
It seems that so much of Orthodoxy is merely cultural norms, not Frumkeit. How do you raise your kids with that open-mindedness, that honest search?
Will I ever fit in? Do I want to fit in?
But it made me think about the religious lifestyle I lead, and how much it is different from my brethren who have always been frum. Can my own religious lifestyle ever be the same as theirs? Would I want my lifestyle to be the same as theirs?
I have a lot of freedom to objectively observe Jewish Law, independently of how it is commonly practiced. That is good and it is bad. For example, I had to choose my own prononciation of Hebrew words, which forced me to learn what the differences are, where they come from, and how they are viewed in Halacha. I think most Frum from birth (FFB) people just take their parents' prononciations for granted, not realizing how much depth there is to even such a simple issue. Even if in the end we come out at the same place, I've gained so much in my approach.
Of course, there are also the many phases of Baal Teshuvakeit, from testing the waters to utter zealousness. I've gone through them all. I remember when I skipped any prayer that seemed remotely optional, even if it just had a smaller font. I also remember when I thought it was frummer to add in every page, paragraph, and bracket into my prayers. But there is a certain maturity that eventually develops.
By its very nature, my approach to Orthodoxy is at the same time fundamentalist and open minded. But can my perspective ever be the same as that of an always been frum person? Could I marry an FFB? I know many BTs go that route, and many stay amongst people from similar backgrounds. A lot of it results from the natural attraction between people of similar experience. But beyond that, can the wide-eyed evaluation of the BT coexist with the cautious eyes of the FFB? Do they balance each other out?
It seems that so much of Orthodoxy is merely cultural norms, not Frumkeit. How do you raise your kids with that open-mindedness, that honest search?
Will I ever fit in? Do I want to fit in?
# posted by Josh : Tuesday, May 23, 2006
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Wow, there are a lot of questions in there...
First off, you are SO much better off than FFB's. Most FFB's do so much of yiddishkeit by route without ever really feeling what they are doing. It should be something that affects everything about us, especially the way we treat others. I HATE to generalize but I've never been to Brooklyn without being pushed out of someone's way with so much as an excuse me...where's Torah?? If that's the way it's supposed to be, I missed that page.
Second, open-mindedness comes with being honest about what exists in the world. If you show your kids what's out there instead of them discovering it on their own, it will be much less of a shock. You can tell them you don't do that but you can teach them to respect them nonetheless.
Third, don't ever feel like you need to fit in. Be proud of who you are and where you have come from. You are much better off than all us FFB's!!
First off, you are SO much better off than FFB's. Most FFB's do so much of yiddishkeit by route without ever really feeling what they are doing. It should be something that affects everything about us, especially the way we treat others. I HATE to generalize but I've never been to Brooklyn without being pushed out of someone's way with so much as an excuse me...where's Torah?? If that's the way it's supposed to be, I missed that page.
Second, open-mindedness comes with being honest about what exists in the world. If you show your kids what's out there instead of them discovering it on their own, it will be much less of a shock. You can tell them you don't do that but you can teach them to respect them nonetheless.
Third, don't ever feel like you need to fit in. Be proud of who you are and where you have come from. You are much better off than all us FFB's!!
As an FFB I can't say that it's worse, but yeah, many do what they do by rote. Happens to be though that I'm very open and it comes from my background. My mother was BT and therefore we've always been welcoming and open in my family. I wear jeans, but I learn. I go to movies, but I go to minyan every day. These things aren't contradictory, in fact, they add to my ability to NOT judge others. My derech eretz and understanding of yiddishkeit are stronger for it. Do I fit in with the Yeshivish crowd? No. Do I fit in with the plain Orthodox crowd? No. Do I want to? Not at all. My differences have allowed me to interact with a much wider range of people and consider a much more diverse group of people my friends, from not at all frum, to a few chassidim.
Because of this background my sister ended up marrying a baal tshuva, and in all likelyhood I'll either marry one, or the child of one because unfortunately too many FFBs don't have the clarity of mind and security to be both modern and orthodox. Er, orthodox and modern?...I guess I'll just never fit in.
Because of this background my sister ended up marrying a baal tshuva, and in all likelyhood I'll either marry one, or the child of one because unfortunately too many FFBs don't have the clarity of mind and security to be both modern and orthodox. Er, orthodox and modern?...I guess I'll just never fit in.
ok seriously, i think i should just give you the password to my blog and you can just write my posts! i feel like i keep reading my thoughts on your blog. ive been getting so much exposure to FFB's through blogs lately that ive also been wondering about these questions..
im always suspicious of BT's who marry FFB's. i guess there can be exceptions, but usually i just assume they are trying to be someone they are not.
i dont beleive that ffb's automatically practice judaism by rote, i think everyone comes to a point in their life where they need to make a decision if they will live by rote, or with intention. i think even BT's after afew years start living their judaism by rote. every person needs to take judaism, find their place in it and make it their own.
i think its possible for some BT's and some FFB's to reach the same point, but in general i tend to think that that its not the best match.
in terms of raising kids, i dont think they need to be exposed to what BT's have been exposed to in order to remain honest and open minded, i think critical thinking can be thought within the boundaries of torah judaism.
hmm.. ive got a lot more to say about this.. maybe i will save some of it for my own blog :)
im always suspicious of BT's who marry FFB's. i guess there can be exceptions, but usually i just assume they are trying to be someone they are not.
i dont beleive that ffb's automatically practice judaism by rote, i think everyone comes to a point in their life where they need to make a decision if they will live by rote, or with intention. i think even BT's after afew years start living their judaism by rote. every person needs to take judaism, find their place in it and make it their own.
i think its possible for some BT's and some FFB's to reach the same point, but in general i tend to think that that its not the best match.
in terms of raising kids, i dont think they need to be exposed to what BT's have been exposed to in order to remain honest and open minded, i think critical thinking can be thought within the boundaries of torah judaism.
hmm.. ive got a lot more to say about this.. maybe i will save some of it for my own blog :)
As someone who deals with similar issues as a convert, my take is: forget about it, you will never really fit in 100%. Just accept that and bring your unique gifts from the "outside world" to the table - that and find a table where they will be confortable with your gifts.
Oh, by the way, I talk about it here: http://treifalicious.blogspot.com/2006/05/jewish-world-needs-more-converts.html#comments
The Jewish world needs more Ba'alei Tshuvah, too.
The Jewish world needs more Ba'alei Tshuvah, too.
I guess the challenge is in your final question - do you want to fit in? Because I feel like a lot of "fitting in" is about accepting things without really thinking that hard about them - about doing things and taking on certain, as you put it, "cultural norms" just because they are those norms. It doesn't make you an individual who has really thought about what you are doing, it makes you blend. And some people probably want that. I don't think I do.
I feel like people become baalei teshuva for different reasons - some do it because they want to be part of a community, they do want to fit in and go along with the tide. But if they had encountered a different community, where would that leave them and who would they then be? Probably someone extremely different.
Others become baalei teshuvah because they really think it's the truth, and for those, I think the only honest way to be is to search for their identity within that truth, which I don't think is the same as following the crowd. To think for oneself and to be like everyone else are usually mutually exclusive. It just depends on whether you are comfortable with that, and which one you choose.
Personally, I have given up on fitting in, because it causes me a lot of tension and feeling like I am not being true to who I am. I feel like adhering to halacha does not mean that I have to toe the party line. I think Torah leaves a great deal of room for individuality, but it takes someone who wants to be an individual to choose and be comfortable with that. And I don't think that's the way for everyone.
Whew! That was way too long, and probably just restated your whole post. Good luck in figuring out your path.
I feel like people become baalei teshuva for different reasons - some do it because they want to be part of a community, they do want to fit in and go along with the tide. But if they had encountered a different community, where would that leave them and who would they then be? Probably someone extremely different.
Others become baalei teshuvah because they really think it's the truth, and for those, I think the only honest way to be is to search for their identity within that truth, which I don't think is the same as following the crowd. To think for oneself and to be like everyone else are usually mutually exclusive. It just depends on whether you are comfortable with that, and which one you choose.
Personally, I have given up on fitting in, because it causes me a lot of tension and feeling like I am not being true to who I am. I feel like adhering to halacha does not mean that I have to toe the party line. I think Torah leaves a great deal of room for individuality, but it takes someone who wants to be an individual to choose and be comfortable with that. And I don't think that's the way for everyone.
Whew! That was way too long, and probably just restated your whole post. Good luck in figuring out your path.
I think that saying that FFB's do things by rote is simplistic and really downplays the efforts and mesiras nefesh of every jew who is shomer torah umitzvos. There's a reason that we don't/can't make an individual choice about each and every thing that we hold. There are so many gradations of religious observance in orthodox Judaism. It’s not just about keeping shabbos and kosher (not that I'm trying to minimize the difficulties of either one). Are you cholov yisroel or not? Clean shaven or beard? Short or long payos? If you’re a woman – you can wear skirts below your knees and sleeves covering your elbows, or you can take it a step further – very long skirts, sleeves to the wrist, seamed stockings, make sure not to wear something very trendy. Do you avoid tv or do you try to eschew all secular influences – secular books, newspapers, etc.
The list goes on and on. There is a plethora of choices and decisions that can make your head spin if you don’t have some starting point, which usually comes from upbringing.
The list goes on and on. There is a plethora of choices and decisions that can make your head spin if you don’t have some starting point, which usually comes from upbringing.
"To think for oneself and to be like everyone else are usually mutually exclusive."
i dont think i agree with this. i think it can be nuanced. you can think for yourself and end up at the same conclusion as everyone else. a lot of the things that are cultural to orthodox judaism have come about through some torah based intellectual deduction. i think its true that most people will choose one or the other - to think for themselves, or follow the crowd- but i know that i personally make a very strong effort at thinking for myself and trying to understand what the crowd does, and in the end i often come to the same conclusions as i assume those who started the trends the crowds follow. being an independent thinker doesnt necessarily mean rebelling against teh system, sometimes its working hard at understanding the basic foundations of the system - and being intellectually honest means sometimes accepting what the crowds do because it makes the most sense.
i dont think i agree with this. i think it can be nuanced. you can think for yourself and end up at the same conclusion as everyone else. a lot of the things that are cultural to orthodox judaism have come about through some torah based intellectual deduction. i think its true that most people will choose one or the other - to think for themselves, or follow the crowd- but i know that i personally make a very strong effort at thinking for myself and trying to understand what the crowd does, and in the end i often come to the same conclusions as i assume those who started the trends the crowds follow. being an independent thinker doesnt necessarily mean rebelling against teh system, sometimes its working hard at understanding the basic foundations of the system - and being intellectually honest means sometimes accepting what the crowds do because it makes the most sense.
how else can you explain the payes? if they aren't to fit in in mea shearim then what the heck are they for?
"It seems that so much of Orthodoxy is merely cultural norms, not Frumkeit"
In a nutshell you have solved most problems in the orthodox / chasidishe environment. People need to realize that most of current day Judaism is only cultural. When folks confuse authentic Judaism with cultural habits the outcome can’t be too good.
In a nutshell you have solved most problems in the orthodox / chasidishe environment. People need to realize that most of current day Judaism is only cultural. When folks confuse authentic Judaism with cultural habits the outcome can’t be too good.
I can't help but think that anyone who has done any spiritual growth is, in a sense, a ba'al teshuva. Someone who looks at who they are today and sees their yesterday was different, and hopefully their tomorrow will be better. Isn't that what a true jew is about? So yeah, I think that often, a ba'al teshuva lives a truer judaism -because of that thirst for growth, the real, personal kind -not growth to fit in, but growth to fit yourself. But many ffbs also have that. So sure, a ffb and a bt can get along, can marry. As long as they're going the same way.
"In the place the ba'al teshuva stands..."
"In the place the ba'al teshuva stands..."
Reading this post really makes me worry. If someone like you, Josh, who seems to have a good head on his shoulders would discount someone because they have a different background than him, well, it makes me realize why there are still so many single people in the frum communities. Yes, it definitely does help to have a similar past, but the thing is, it's just the past. What's important is what type of future you make with a person. Whether one is ffb or baal teshuva shouldn't really be such a big deal. Worry about the persons middos and personality traits (and yes, even their looks, because it is important to be attracted to ones mate -- although, I have always been a firm believer in getting to know someone before you judge them on their looks. If someone has a great personality and is, pardon the phrase, butt-ugly when you first meet them, they could become the best looking person in the world once you really get to know them. And vice versa with someone who at first glance seems to be the most beautiful/handsome person in the world. If they have a crap-tacular personlity their face could turn ugly pretty quickly.) Sorry for going off on a rant, Josh. Basically, what I was trying to say, is that I don't want you to limit yourself. There are a lot of great girls out there and one of the ffb ones might be the right one for you. Just give 'em a chance.
attn susqhb: i personally find your comment to be untrue. i know a few men who used to be one type of chassidic - the type who wear long peyos - and changed to another type of chassidic who's garb does not unclude long peyos - but they didnt cut them! and in their current crowd, that stands out. but those peyos represent an ideal, not just a community - so they keep them.
# posted by 
: May 25, 2006 3:07 PM
: May 25, 2006 3:07 PM
the tailor--I know. I actually wrote about that but then deleted it, cause it was getting too long. No matter the definition though, the gemara is speaking about people who achieved greatness through work, growth, and wern't just born to it. That applies equally to ffb's, modern-day baalei teshuva, and those who went "off" but found their way back. They all know what they've worked through, and that is why the place in which they stand cannot be touched by someone who's path was never broken or twisted.
IMM - I never knew you were jealous of me for anything. I guess the open-mindedness that distinguishes me is something that can be passed down. I've made a choice that exposure itself isn't dangerous, as long as I'm willing to understand what does and what does not fit with a frum lifestyle. But I think that while FFB's don't naturally approach religious choices so critically, they certainly can. Instead of just doing what your father does, ask why, what are the other Shitos, what is Halacha, what is Minhag, and what is just randomly common among the frum world. You may be able to distinguish Brooklyn from Frumkeit.
BB - Are you saying I'm fat?!
Sh - It's funny, because seeing yourself through other's eyes is in my mind the only way a frum person should judge themselves (well, maybe not the only). I think much of the character development stressed through the Mussar movement and the Torah world is accomplished with that critical view of how we are perceived, so I think it would be a shame (and outright negative) not to critique ourselves.
DYS - I think you've got it. There is no one size fits all approach to Judaism, and we have to determine for ourselves if so many different things will bring us closer to Gd or not. We have to be honest about what we are trying to accomplish, but as you mentioned, going to movies for example, can't be seen as universally Assur. We have to know whether for us that will be the most productive thing for us or not. So it can be hard when what works for us isn't the norm, but we shouldn't give it up it it's working.
Mookie - as far as FFB and BT getting married, to me it like a poor guy and a rich girl getting married - sure it can work, but they won't always understand each other. You are right that everyone makes that decision to live by rote or decisively, no matter what they're background. But the problem is that a BT living by decision and an FFB living by rote can be seemingly at the same point, but their values can be absolutely different.
T- I absolutely agree that BT's bring a fresh perspective to the table, if nothing else. I don't think they aren't welcome (at least in my circle), but sometimes I think they are viewed as outsiders who can't validly state an opinion on how things should be (but that's a whole different topic).
Sh-ana - I think you understand me. That is the choice. It just seems strange how few "thinkers" there seem to be. Maybe we all have it, but it's beneath the surface?
MH - We definitely have tons of choices to make. But how many people make them? How many BY girls choose NOT to wear a Shaitel?
Mookie - I wholeheartedly agree that being independent doesn't mean rebelling. Just because we think of issues independently doesn't mean others are wrong. It's important to recognize that what works for others might just not work for us, but understanding them is just as important about understanding ourselves. The goal isn't to be different, it's to do what is right for us. Wherever that takes us.
Tail - I'm not saying I wouldn't date an FFB (I've dated many). I just wonder if it would work. Even if we seemed to be compatible, there might just be subtley different expectations. Of course, we shall see...
TB - My heroine...
Sus - Finally somebody who understands me...And yes, you can use the born again line...
AAC - The problem ends up extending when frum people judge other frum people by these cultural extensions of Judaism. There are many Poskim out there, and while we may live in a community of like minded people, that doesn't mean that those that follow other Poskim are outside the pale. Even if somebody believes that the only way to be frum is to speak Yiddish, does that mean he has to villianize the non-Yiddish speaking frum world? He can live how he likes, and not feel responsible if I end up not-frum. We each make our judgement, but there is only one Judge...
Timmie - Don't worry, not discounting anybody. Just pondering...
Okee - You are right. There is no need for me to use the label as they are unfairly applied. Everyone has the ability to make themselves a BT, and I suppose it is that open-minded analysis of how each person can best grow that achieves that. And that is something that somebody in Grand Rapids or Boro Park can acheive. And I suppose that isolation that any BT feels is the tension between making their own choices and simply adopting the community standard. And certainly somebody who is FFB can have that tension if they choose it...
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BB - Are you saying I'm fat?!
Sh - It's funny, because seeing yourself through other's eyes is in my mind the only way a frum person should judge themselves (well, maybe not the only). I think much of the character development stressed through the Mussar movement and the Torah world is accomplished with that critical view of how we are perceived, so I think it would be a shame (and outright negative) not to critique ourselves.
DYS - I think you've got it. There is no one size fits all approach to Judaism, and we have to determine for ourselves if so many different things will bring us closer to Gd or not. We have to be honest about what we are trying to accomplish, but as you mentioned, going to movies for example, can't be seen as universally Assur. We have to know whether for us that will be the most productive thing for us or not. So it can be hard when what works for us isn't the norm, but we shouldn't give it up it it's working.
Mookie - as far as FFB and BT getting married, to me it like a poor guy and a rich girl getting married - sure it can work, but they won't always understand each other. You are right that everyone makes that decision to live by rote or decisively, no matter what they're background. But the problem is that a BT living by decision and an FFB living by rote can be seemingly at the same point, but their values can be absolutely different.
T- I absolutely agree that BT's bring a fresh perspective to the table, if nothing else. I don't think they aren't welcome (at least in my circle), but sometimes I think they are viewed as outsiders who can't validly state an opinion on how things should be (but that's a whole different topic).
Sh-ana - I think you understand me. That is the choice. It just seems strange how few "thinkers" there seem to be. Maybe we all have it, but it's beneath the surface?
MH - We definitely have tons of choices to make. But how many people make them? How many BY girls choose NOT to wear a Shaitel?
Mookie - I wholeheartedly agree that being independent doesn't mean rebelling. Just because we think of issues independently doesn't mean others are wrong. It's important to recognize that what works for others might just not work for us, but understanding them is just as important about understanding ourselves. The goal isn't to be different, it's to do what is right for us. Wherever that takes us.
Tail - I'm not saying I wouldn't date an FFB (I've dated many). I just wonder if it would work. Even if we seemed to be compatible, there might just be subtley different expectations. Of course, we shall see...
TB - My heroine...
Sus - Finally somebody who understands me...And yes, you can use the born again line...
AAC - The problem ends up extending when frum people judge other frum people by these cultural extensions of Judaism. There are many Poskim out there, and while we may live in a community of like minded people, that doesn't mean that those that follow other Poskim are outside the pale. Even if somebody believes that the only way to be frum is to speak Yiddish, does that mean he has to villianize the non-Yiddish speaking frum world? He can live how he likes, and not feel responsible if I end up not-frum. We each make our judgement, but there is only one Judge...
Timmie - Don't worry, not discounting anybody. Just pondering...
Okee - You are right. There is no need for me to use the label as they are unfairly applied. Everyone has the ability to make themselves a BT, and I suppose it is that open-minded analysis of how each person can best grow that achieves that. And that is something that somebody in Grand Rapids or Boro Park can acheive. And I suppose that isolation that any BT feels is the tension between making their own choices and simply adopting the community standard. And certainly somebody who is FFB can have that tension if they choose it...
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