Why Josh Can't Be Left Alone

i used to agree with you 110%. I really used to believe that it doesnt matter and that both sides of a relationship can have friends of the opposite sex. Lets just say i was wrong. I was in a relationship where the girl ended up with one of those "friends" she claimed she never liked that way.....surfice to say, i am a lot more skeptical.
 

Josh - I think it's a difficult (or impossible thing to do) - if you're talking about a deep friendship. If it's casual and easygoing that's one thing (although it's still a slippery slope). but if you're having in depth and intimate conversations, you're getting into dangerous territory. Someone is likely going to end up with hurt feelings.
 

Having negotiated several non-sexual male-female friendships in my single days, I would recommend it only if you are absolutely not attracted to the person. Once there's even the tiniest amount of attraction on either side, it becomes incredibly difficult to maintain objectivity.
 

Hello, Josh. I am a newcomer to your egotistical blog fanclub. Some of what you say is very interesting to those who like to listen to lashon hara. You look like a frum guy, but the way you talk about other people in a public setting is, quite frankly, the ruddest, most chutzpa thing I have ever heard of and I can see why you have issues with your relationships.
 

i agree with 'the tailor', the minute you start developing a strong connection with someone of the opposite sex, having intimate interactions, opening up.. you end up losing out in the long run. even on-line friendships can have a big impact on your emotions, and every impact on your emotions leaves a small imprint(at best)or a scar (at worst).
every little hurt builds up a little wall, every positive feeling builds up an expectation. i don’t know if its "cheating" on your future spouse, but it will definitely detract from your future relationship. the more walls and expectations you've accumulated, the longer it will take before she can get past them.

(btw, when i say "you", i really mean "I" - thanks for talking abut this, and good luck)
 

PC - It is difficult facing the unexpected hurdles. Obviously, nothing is simple or easy, but I like to think of things as consistent or predictable, so I at least know what trouble I'm getting myself into. But that's what I have to do, process everything and figure out what leads to what, and what I have to do to be on the path of relationships that I want to be on.

E - Of course I'm being melodramatic. Blogging wouldn't be interesting if I pulled the creative writing out. But the situation remains relevant. And I'm not cheating on anyone I'm dating now (because I'm not dating), but one of my reasons for the boundaries I have in relationships is not just a fear of physical activity, but also because at a certain point there is an element of exclusivity and intensity that would be outside my marriage. And in Judaism the goal is to focus all of that emotional (and phsical) energy on one relationship. The trick is determining what is that level that you should have with your wife, and what would be normal friendship with anyone, same-sex or otherwise.

Anon- Like you say, part of what I have to analyze is whether my prior logic was flawed, and I have to accordingly reasses what I am comfortable with, or if I was correct in my understanding of relationships but wasn't consistent in following my own standards and limits. I'm not sure yet.

T - Thanks for dropping in. There are three possible risks, as far as I can see, with getting into one of these relationships. 1) It can end up with non-permitted physical contact, which I haven't had a problem with. 2) It can end up with making a marriage decision based on feelings but not reason, leading to future ramifications. But I haven't had that one yet. 3) It can lead to emotional pain. That is more what I'm facing. But that isn't a Halachic or Hashkafic issue. It is an emotion, not good or bad. And having gone through life on a pareve, mechanical existence, where everything has been taken care of for me, it's kind of nice to experience it. Obviously, I wouldn't wish any pain on the other person. That's why I get in the relationship to begin with - because it appears there is a need for the friendship. I should make it clear that that is my motivation for getting involved in these situations. I want to help, to do good. If I'm going to do harm, I don't want any part of it.

MH - There is a definite difference between the two, and almost every guy-girl friendship I've been in has been clearly on the casual side, with a few exceptions. I have specific boundaries for myself, such as not hanging out one-on-one with a girl friend, to minimize the confusion. But obviously my defenses can be breached...

AS - I absolutely agree. Once I recognize that line has been crossed (I'll admit to usually being very slow), I try and pull back to a safe distance. Again, though, I try not to hurt anybody. There was only one time it got at all messy, and we've patched up since.

Anon2 - Is my blog egotistical or its fan club? On a serious note, I take your Lashon Hora point very seriously. If you feel that this post, or any other, or any comments are loshon hora, feel free to email me the specific reasons, and I will remove them in a second if any harmful speech is present. But everything I write is about my life and feelings, so I should be the only one slandered here. But I do encourage everyone to keep me in line as necessary. Please recognize that my being so open about my feelings and actions is because I intend to grow and learn in my life. I blog because I feel this is a healthy forum for that, but feel free to disagree.

AMookie - Does each incident take away from my total allotment of emotional connections in life? Or does every bit that I gain now and to the maturity and emotional completeness that I can bring into marriage? I've definitely been operating on the latter assumption.
 

I strongly disagreed with you when you told Anon2 that your blog or most of the other blogs are healthy forums for growth. I honestly see them as venues for bloggers and their egos enjoying knowing the rest of the world is watching. I've also witnessed first hand, younger, less mature bloggers making decisions about important issues in their lives based upon advice from fellow bloggers who most of us would agree in some cases are very unstable individuals. Blogging can be your therapy, blogging can be our entertainment, blogs have already become a long chapter in the definition of this 21st century Ipod generation, but I think bloggers and commentors need to be extremely careful when giving advice and encouragement to each other. I have personally seen a family in the process of destructing and much of the encouragement to make false conclusions about a parent came to a young blogger online from fellow bloggers. Fellow bloggers who have heard half a teenage story and no idea what is really happening on the other side of the computer. As bloggers in the Jewish blogsphere where is our voice on Kibud av v'em? Where is our concern for Lashon Hara? There was another blogger who left the blogsphere after telling horrible stories of her father's privacy invasion into her internet life and the horrors when he finally found her blog. In response there was hardly a comment from readers asking her how old she was or supporting the parent who wants to know what the children are doing online, but there were many more bloggers who villianized the father for his audacity in being concerned for his own daughters safety. As a parent myself, I'll bet the concern came from love and concern for his child. In our house we have a rule. My husband and I are free to check the history file any time. If there is something there we don't like or the file is empty the computer goes off for a month. It's not a perfect system, but it's something and the teenagers in our house respect it. I would like to hear from parents not only how they monitor their teenagers but why they monitor their teenagers online. BTW, I enjoy your blog most of the time, it is good entertainment.
 

I think it's doable along as there are "rules" set by both parties and are never trespassed on.
I agree with Anysara that if either of the parties is attracted to the other than it's a dangerous game.
 

I am in favor of having friendships with members of the opposite sex, because I know I have gotten a lot out such friendships. Having said that, however, I do admit that it isn't easy, and often leads to stress and hurt, for many reasons. I have thought about this a lot, and there is definitely a different element in opposite-gender relationships than there is in same-gender relationships. Both offer distinct advantages, and I think my life is fuller in having both. However, with those opposite-gender relationships, it can become very tricky to keep it on a friendship level, especially on the parts of both parties, which is often where the hurt comes in. I have been down the road many times where one side of the relationship wants more (and I have been on both sides of this), and even though there is clear communication that it won't become more, it often becomes a sticking point where the relationship must end or the party wanting more gets too hurt. I don't think it is infidelity towards a future spouse, but I do believe that it can come in the way of being objective and actively looking for a spouse. It's tricky, and if I have managed to really pull off any opposite-sex relationships successfully, I don't think I can say that at no time in the relationship was there conflict. Many believe it's better to not have these relationships at all, I feel that I have gotten enough from them that it is. But I don't encourage others to do it if they are not comfortable. It's a fine line to walk. And I have to say, along with AnySara, that it is definitely more easy when there is no attraction there, but that usually means there isn't as much connection either.
 

i think our goal is to get married so we can grow, mature and find emotional completion. the non torah world has taught us that we need to be complete before we get married and thats the excuse used for what you see in the non torah world of dating...
one of the problems in looking for this outside of marriage is that you gain this maturity with another person, other than your wife, and assuming she does the same, you then join in marriage and each bring your own already-formed perspective on how things 'should' be. you then have to break down the old ideas, and rebuild new ones with your new partner. seems counterproductive.

if you ask me the reason i find it so hard to follow my own advice, it's because g-d did not create us to be alone, to be single, we are supposed to be in pairs, and the pain of being alone, the disconnection, the floating feeling gets so unbearable that we latch on to whatever feelings of attachment and intimacy we can get. for those in the non frum world - we know where that goes, but for us, eventho we have strong rules and regulations as to how far we will let ourselves get carried away in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, we dont realize that we are doing the identical thing but on a more subtle, non physical level.

you say youve been working on one assumption (maybe based on theory alone) and are now experiencing a different reality. dont brush that off. be honest with yourself. if youre asking the question, you must be feeling it in your gut - to some extent. if you feel that you are giving of yourself to a point that you thought you wouldnt until you got married, dont ignore that. its your intimacy warning bell.
realize that the allure here is probably not the maturity or emotional completeness, the allure is the emotional rush, the non-mechanical existing, the thrill of the intimacy and the truth is, you dont want that with multiple partners, you want that once, with the right person!

on a brighter note, this is a good sign - youre perfectly healthy and craving what you should be craving :) good luck!
 

You know, most of my best and deepest friendships since college have been with men. I think they are good because they help you see the opposite sex as people with a full range of emotions and not just objects of sex and marriage (as you might of your main non-professional interaction with the opposite sex is confined mostly to dating and marriage).

The main emotional risk is that one will develop romantic feelings and the other won't. Than and/or one will get into a serious relationship and the other person will be replaced by their friend's significant other (though there is an extent to which this also happens with same-sex friendships).

On the other hand, some excellent and long lasting marriages have started with a man and woman who were honest to goodness friends brforehand. Older, married people say over and over again that being friends is more important than romantic and sexual passion for the long-term survival of a marriage, anyway. If you start out as friends then you know you have that already.
 

being upfront can work, and i agree with prag on that, but as i said from experience, it better not dealing with it at all...I have been there, even worked through ground rules and the girl still cheated...so nothing is fool proof. And it can cause way more problems than u think.
-first anonymous
 

Anon 1:18 - Obviously a blog about me is by definition narcissistic. There are many different motivations to blogging, but those don't remove its growth potential. Blogs are a form of communication, both with one's self and others in society. Since I don't know everyone commenting her personally, of course I have to take everything with a grain of salt. I was actually thrilled with the amazing insights everyone had on this post specificly. Are there many bloggers out there who are self-destructive? Are there many commenters out there who enjoy giving bad advice? Sure. I can only speak for myself when I say that I find this a healthy forum. There have been plenty of blogs that I've given up on after seeing that they aren't forums for truth seeking. But there is so much good out there, you just have to sift through it all. Hopefully, my ego won't get carried away, and as I mentioned before, if there is Lashon Hora in my domain, please bring it to my attention. But I can't be personally responsible for everything you find on the internet. I hope that everyone views my blog as a site guided by Halachic and Hashkafic growth, and that the momentum only carries in that one direction. The specific example you gave of Kibud Av V'Em happens to be a blogger that a know offline, and is a good of example of Dan L'kaf Zechus. Give the best advice to everyone you see online to help them grow, but always understand that there is much more to the situation than we see from the glimpse into their blogs.

DG - Girls can be funny? Just want to be clear, that the confusion I'm talking about is not physical. I have been Shomer Negia longer than I have been Shomer Shabbos. Obviously, those issues are important, but also much easier to define. Unfortunately, the Beis Yaakov/Yeshiva system doesn't address the physical much (if at all), making its curiousity much stronger. I think normal interaction with the opposite can dispell that hypersexuality. The trick is setting those safe boundaries, without going to any extremes or sacrificing your ideals in the process. But when does an opposite sex acquaintance become a friend/best friend/girlfriend? I defintely believe in emotional cheating in a marriage, but even still what is that point? Just because my wife might know that I'm talking to somebody else, does that make it ok? How much emotional energy can I give?

Prag - So if we set rules, does that mean that there is no limit to an emotional relationship, as long as both parties agree? Can both parties agree to something that might still be harmful, spiritually and emotionally, that they aren't aware of?

Sh - Some of these relationships do grow, because we build on the bond. But I have numerous friends of the opposite sex where this didn't happen - everything is normal. I wouldn't want to give all those up because in a few isolated situations my feeling grew. Is there something wrong with having your heart broken, even if you are part of the decision to insert some distance? Just because there is a potential for a friendship to grow into love doesn't seem like grounds to forbid it. Life is built by learning the hard way.

Sh-ana - There is so much to gain. Not only have I learned that I am capable of love and emotions, but I view women totally different. Being a deprived Yeshiva Bochur, women became very objectified. Physical intimacy was the only value I could find in a girl. But having seen that I can connect on such a deeper level, I understand that the lust is silly. There is so much more there. But a complete separation of the sexes makes it hard to see that. I think it is capable to expend emotional energy outside of a spouse. My comfortability level has always been that if I could continue this relationship on its current level even after marriage, then I am in a safe place. But if not, then it is no different than being in an exclusive relationship now with this person, which isn't were a frum person should be focusing all of their single energy.

Mookie - Wow. You said it. You took the random words floating through my head and put them together into cohesive statements. That is exactly what I am doing. I see the emotional connection as something that should be reserved for marriage, but am finding stop-gap solutions in the interim. Is it healthy? I don't know. It's not Assur, and in many ways, it's kept me more frum. As I said above, when I see women through love I don't view them through lust. And that has to be good for my Neshoma. I've worried that I have an unhealthy view of relationships, but you've made me feel much better.

Treif - Good point about people being betrayed by their same-sex friends when they get married. Marriage takes a certain amount of energy, and it changes the dynamic of all our friendships. So we shouldn't be turned off by the eventual need to loosen our grasp on our opposite sex friends. But if one side does fall romantically for the other, is that the end of the world? So they back up their relationship, and yes, maybe somebody gets hurt, but does that mean I shouldn't say hi to my neighbor in Shul?

First Anon (thanks for identifying yourself) - I'm not sure about your situation. Obviously, no matter what rules you set, they may be broken. People who aren't committed to bettering themselves probably will find a way to always break rules. But I think with a healthy dose of caution and realism, one can figure out what works for them. Somebody who can't take hurt should stay further away from these relationships, but risk usually comes with reward...
 

josh, your posts take too much mental energy for me to reply with my own opinion so late at night nowadays, but i just wanted to let you know that i still read them, and i check every day.
 

I'm all in favour [sic, I'm Canadian] of having female friends. However I barely have any anymore. Thing is, I don't believe in platonic relationships, so anytime you get close to someone there will be an emotional attachment. Now there's nothing wrong with this attachment, but when you're dating for marriage it is not only detremental to a relationship but just plain mean to continue your emotional involvement with someone else. I have 2 or 3 female friends I talk to, but 1 I've been friends with since I was 2, the other is like a mother to many people (you know who I'm talking about) and the third is a friend I stole from my 28 year old sister who is just someone with sage advice. Any other girls are married. Last time I was close with multiple girls I ended up liking 3 of them at once and not knowing what to do about it.
I'm dating because I know I've gotten to the point where my individual growth is stagnant. I can only go further with the help of a mate and every close friendship with girls detracts from my ability to make the connection with a girl I'm dating. As I write this I realise that even blogging what I'm feeling in some way takes away because the more I'm sharing with other people, the less I have to share with her, or at the very least, the less I'm saving to share with her. Let me qualify the previous statement: Just because I haven't told her everything about me yet, or she hasn't learned everything yet, doesn't mean she won't know about all my extensive issues when the time is right. What's the point of sharing it with non-romantic involved female friends whom ultimately I'm not looking to build a strong and long-lasting connection.

In terms of growth, sure we gain from friends but when we see a clear goal, it is much greater for our growth. This thought comes from having dated a girl for a month, a girl who really gave me a lot in that I've now been able to motivate myself to get to minyan every day, and control my eyes a little more. Even though it didn't work out, the fact that there was a goal in mind helped me growth and made me better for the person I'll ultimately went out with.

I tend to find speech more fluid than typing nowadays so I apologize if my sentences are composed in a not-so-elegant manner. It could also be the coffee wearing off. I hope i made my point, I like to be known for eloquence (talk about a narcissist).
 

josh - you started out this discussion by saying indicating that you're not superman, this (issue) is your kryptonite, and your comfortable boundaries have been blurred. Now (within the space of a day or two and some blog commentary) you seem to have resolved all that. so...were you just putting this out there for discussion?
 

DG - I guess I was like you, raised in a co-ed environment (going to Israel was my first time away from girls). Although an unrelated post, I am in favor of separate schools. But related to your comment, I don't think that our whole lives need to be separate. I think that balance is what enables us to get to know the opposite sex on one hand, but not get close enough to get into a relationship. Something like mixed Kiddushes doesn't bother me in the least. But I'd imagine that if dating is your first encounter with the opposite sex, that is a tough time to learn all the differences. ("You mean I can't tell her that she needs a breath mint?") If you want specifics on how having a girl friend keeps me frummer, email me. But generally speaking, because it occupies my mind in a non-sexual way.

Ch - I'm sorry that I'm straining you too much. I'm amazed at how little you sleep. I went to bed at 8 through High School. As long as you're around to drop a spark when needed, I'm glad you're still here.

Dudes - I get what you're saying. When we're in deep, we're making a connection that is taking the place of something that is infinitely deeper. So it is cheating, in a sense. The question becomes at what point are we friends, and at what time is it a relationship holding me over until marriage. I won't hang out with a girl, or form any kind of exclusivity. At least those were two of my rules to keep me in a productive mode. And like the "motherly" girl you mentioned, there are plenty of guy-girl friendships that don't get out of control. I guess the trick is being honest with yourself on how attached you are. Nothing wrong with reaching out to somebody with a question. But it's another thing altogether if you miss their voice.

MH - It wasn't academic. I needed to be honest with myself, and sometimes it takes objective observers to make you see the truth.
 

To the anonymous who mentioned the situation of my father reading my blog:
First you are a hypocrite, you speak against loshon hara when you just slandered my name online without knowing me or if I would be reading this. How dare you pretend to be so holy that you will stand up for watching our lips but you do not watch your own. You just spoke the worst kind of loshon hara, it was derogatory and it was in front of me and it was a lie. Do you live your entire life saying one thing and then living another? You are more guilty of loshon hara than anything I have ever heard, online and off.
I am anonyous for apparent reasons but why are you? This will be the second time you weaken your words, by not giving them a name. If you are so strong in this belief why are you afraid to let us know who you are? Or maybe it is because you do not practice what you preach.
You do not know my situation. My father is verbally abusive, and that is not just my opinion. That is the opinion of many rabbis in the community and many therapists. And even once he read my blog, after I had stopped posting, he printed out my words and showed them to teachers and rabbis who do not know me and have no business knowing my thoughts. The same can be said for personal online conversations with approved friends.
Did your cowardness make you blind as well?
I do not know why you think I am lying or why I would make something like this up. My father was verbally abusive, and physically on more than one occassion. I am not telling you this to convince you, I don't need your sympathy or approval. But I am scared your stupidity has caused other children a lot of pain. If you do not see that this is wrong then you have something missing. So maybe your cowardness made you lose your humanity, as it has been shown to do throughout history.
Please do not slander my name anymore, on or offline, as I would never think to slander yours. In fact, please don't mention me at all. I did not lie in anything I ever said on my blog or commented anywhere else. If you do not see that then I pity you more than anything. I pity you because you do not see the truth.
Thank you for putting me in a situation where I needed to defend myself, for reminding me that there will always be doubters like you, but that does not make my story any less real. I truthfully hope that you have a good shabboss. Be well.
 

What the above commentor wrote is pure lashon hara. If it's true or not, it's l'h. Josh said someone should tell him when there is L'H and he will take it down. This post should come down.
 

Anons - I want my blog to be an Halachicly safe place. I'm not fully sure of the Halacha of Lashon Hora when the subject is anonymous. Obviously you are speaking of a specific person, and I don't know how anyone could know whom you're talking about. I'll leave both you're comments up for now, unless I get definite Halachic opinion otherwise, but I'm really not sure why this is such an exciting topic, so take a deep breath, forgive, and move on...