Wednesday, May 17, 2006
Looking for a Teacher...
One of the worlds that the J-blogosphere has enabled me to peak into is the isolated reaches of the Chassidic community. Fascinating unto itself, with its own set of successes and failures, it is also interesting to see how uniform it is. There are countless varieties of Chassidic groups, and of course each one is distinct from the others in a variety of ways. But as far as lifestyle, they are so remarkably similar. They all fall somewhere into the Ultra-Orthodox camp. Even between Lubavitch and Satmar, when compared to the rest of the world, they occupy almost the same niche.
I suppose from a historical perspective, this fundamentalist approach makes sense, as Chassidus developed as a reaction to a number of issues that challenged the integrity of the Jewish community. But aside from those historical issues, I find it amazing that this uniform approach still pervades today. Other than the possible exception ofAish Kodesh in Woodmere, NY (no, MOChossid doesn't count), I don't even think there are any examples of a modern Orthodox Chassidus. Why don't any Chassidic groups go to college, for example? Obviously there are some individuals that do, and I'm not saying that such an act is an advisable choice, but it just seems odd that college, as an example, is universally ignored in the Chassidic world.
You could think of the uniformity of dress as well. It just seems that there would be a similar demand in the Modern Orthodox world for the same philosophies, so it seems odd that while the Misnagdish world spans a grey continuum from Lakewood to Humanistic with almost no breaks, the Chassidic world appears to have very little plurality. With so many different Rebbes, you'd think there'd be more differentiation.
Another aspect of this black and white diversity question is why Chassidic communities end up being the only true outlet for their followers. Obviously, everyone sees only one truth for themselves, and that's why they pursue it. They might be in a Yeshiva in Brooklyn, or a frum doctor in Minneapolis, each thinking they live the most Gdly lifestyle, but I don't think either one would consider his son frei if he chose to lead the other's lifestyle. We may not think that derech is the emmes, but we understand that it is frum. (Yes, I realize that there are those in the non-Chassidic world who are closed minded about this issue as well. My point is that that diversity and ability to move between modern and chareidi exists within the Misnagdish world.)
But in the Chassidic world, if you leave the Rebbe, you leave the fold. You might as well put up an x-mas tree. It's either the Chassidus or you're not frum. But I always saw Chassidus as an elite approach to Yiddishkeit. You choose it to be closer to Gd if that works for you, and if not you live with the rest of the mortals. It's an emmes, a truth, if it works for you, but if not, you go back to being Shomer Shabbos and Rebbe-less like the rest of us. It's similar to joining a monastery. It might make you more frum as you completely dedicate your life to a singular journey, but certainly those in other realms are struggling to make the right choices as well.
I don't know if this post is supposed to question the rigidity of the Chassidic lifestlye, or to wish that it could be made available to a wider range of people. It's a world I've always been fond of, however imperfect it may be. I guess we all just want a Rebbe.
I suppose from a historical perspective, this fundamentalist approach makes sense, as Chassidus developed as a reaction to a number of issues that challenged the integrity of the Jewish community. But aside from those historical issues, I find it amazing that this uniform approach still pervades today. Other than the possible exception ofAish Kodesh in Woodmere, NY (no, MOChossid doesn't count), I don't even think there are any examples of a modern Orthodox Chassidus. Why don't any Chassidic groups go to college, for example? Obviously there are some individuals that do, and I'm not saying that such an act is an advisable choice, but it just seems odd that college, as an example, is universally ignored in the Chassidic world.
You could think of the uniformity of dress as well. It just seems that there would be a similar demand in the Modern Orthodox world for the same philosophies, so it seems odd that while the Misnagdish world spans a grey continuum from Lakewood to Humanistic with almost no breaks, the Chassidic world appears to have very little plurality. With so many different Rebbes, you'd think there'd be more differentiation.
Another aspect of this black and white diversity question is why Chassidic communities end up being the only true outlet for their followers. Obviously, everyone sees only one truth for themselves, and that's why they pursue it. They might be in a Yeshiva in Brooklyn, or a frum doctor in Minneapolis, each thinking they live the most Gdly lifestyle, but I don't think either one would consider his son frei if he chose to lead the other's lifestyle. We may not think that derech is the emmes, but we understand that it is frum. (Yes, I realize that there are those in the non-Chassidic world who are closed minded about this issue as well. My point is that that diversity and ability to move between modern and chareidi exists within the Misnagdish world.)
But in the Chassidic world, if you leave the Rebbe, you leave the fold. You might as well put up an x-mas tree. It's either the Chassidus or you're not frum. But I always saw Chassidus as an elite approach to Yiddishkeit. You choose it to be closer to Gd if that works for you, and if not you live with the rest of the mortals. It's an emmes, a truth, if it works for you, but if not, you go back to being Shomer Shabbos and Rebbe-less like the rest of us. It's similar to joining a monastery. It might make you more frum as you completely dedicate your life to a singular journey, but certainly those in other realms are struggling to make the right choices as well.
I don't know if this post is supposed to question the rigidity of the Chassidic lifestlye, or to wish that it could be made available to a wider range of people. It's a world I've always been fond of, however imperfect it may be. I guess we all just want a Rebbe.
# posted by Josh : Wednesday, May 17, 2006
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Nice post Josh.
Shut up Baboon. If the most intelligent thing you have to say is criticism of someone's Mivta then you should consider never, ever speaking again for your own sake.
As for chassiduT, I'd point you towards Ger. Being from Ger originally (my great geat great grandfather (or so) was the Sfas Emes's shamas), I am slightly biased but Ger is really the optimal chassidic sect. I say this because while all other chassidic groups hit up outsiders for donations, Ger does not. The Gerer rebbe has always said that if you are not strong in learning then you are obligated to work. Through this method it is Ger chassidim who are working in the modern world who support those who are learning in kollel.
So basically in Ger if you can cut it as a chassid and live under the rebbe then you do, if not, you work.
And you don't need to be a chassid to have a rebbe, as it says "Aseh lecha rav."
Shut up Baboon. If the most intelligent thing you have to say is criticism of someone's Mivta then you should consider never, ever speaking again for your own sake.
As for chassiduT, I'd point you towards Ger. Being from Ger originally (my great geat great grandfather (or so) was the Sfas Emes's shamas), I am slightly biased but Ger is really the optimal chassidic sect. I say this because while all other chassidic groups hit up outsiders for donations, Ger does not. The Gerer rebbe has always said that if you are not strong in learning then you are obligated to work. Through this method it is Ger chassidim who are working in the modern world who support those who are learning in kollel.
So basically in Ger if you can cut it as a chassid and live under the rebbe then you do, if not, you work.
And you don't need to be a chassid to have a rebbe, as it says "Aseh lecha rav."
MH - Thanks for the vote. Anything to add?
Mas - I'm no historian, but the lifestyle of the Chassidim is certainly a response to the societies they lived amongst, then and now. I think there is a very strong desire by people to have a leader. Most people want to do the right thing, and recognizing themselves as imperfect, want somebody to follow. A Rebbe fills that gap. Having a Rebbe is nothing new in Judaism. While a Chassidic Rebbe may have taken on added dimensions, I don't find the relationship intrinsically problematic. Until that individual becomes somebody you view as a source of spiritual inspiration to an objective spiritual destination.
RWOAC - I apologize if my post came across as criticizing the essence of Chassidus. This post had nothing to do with my prior post on Chabad. In fact, my piece was meant to evoke the yearning I have to bring more Chassidus into my life. I value so much of it, and envy those enveloped by it, but it's not for me. It's too rigid. The "one size fits all" definition never worked for me. The uniformity of Chassidim is designed to lead its followers on a life of spiritual growth. And it works for so many. But no one way can be the answer for every person. I'd love to find a Chassidus that could utilize my strengths and weaknesses. I guess that is what this post is really lamenting, that the uniformity of all Chassidic groups means that there isn't one for me. And I wish I could find that comfort that you have. I have no problem with a Rebbe, I just wish there was one who could speak to me.
TAB - LOL
Dud - Just pointing out the mivta - Masmida. Ironic, no? Anyways, you definitely bring a positive light to Ger, but the truth is all Chassidic sects sound more realistic once you get to know the real deal, and not just the stereotypes. But as different as they are, each group is still too rigid for me. I don't think individuality is perceived as an inherent flaw in Judaism, and I wouldn't want mine taken away. But that doesn't mean I don't want a Rebbe to go to. So yeah, Aseh L'cha Rav, but outside of that world, how many people are willing to be there like that? I know, I can't have my cake and eat it to. I guess we'll just have to turn to the J-blogger Rebbe.
Sh - Once you've got Reb O...
Mas - I'm no historian, but the lifestyle of the Chassidim is certainly a response to the societies they lived amongst, then and now. I think there is a very strong desire by people to have a leader. Most people want to do the right thing, and recognizing themselves as imperfect, want somebody to follow. A Rebbe fills that gap. Having a Rebbe is nothing new in Judaism. While a Chassidic Rebbe may have taken on added dimensions, I don't find the relationship intrinsically problematic. Until that individual becomes somebody you view as a source of spiritual inspiration to an objective spiritual destination.
RWOAC - I apologize if my post came across as criticizing the essence of Chassidus. This post had nothing to do with my prior post on Chabad. In fact, my piece was meant to evoke the yearning I have to bring more Chassidus into my life. I value so much of it, and envy those enveloped by it, but it's not for me. It's too rigid. The "one size fits all" definition never worked for me. The uniformity of Chassidim is designed to lead its followers on a life of spiritual growth. And it works for so many. But no one way can be the answer for every person. I'd love to find a Chassidus that could utilize my strengths and weaknesses. I guess that is what this post is really lamenting, that the uniformity of all Chassidic groups means that there isn't one for me. And I wish I could find that comfort that you have. I have no problem with a Rebbe, I just wish there was one who could speak to me.
TAB - LOL
Dud - Just pointing out the mivta - Masmida. Ironic, no? Anyways, you definitely bring a positive light to Ger, but the truth is all Chassidic sects sound more realistic once you get to know the real deal, and not just the stereotypes. But as different as they are, each group is still too rigid for me. I don't think individuality is perceived as an inherent flaw in Judaism, and I wouldn't want mine taken away. But that doesn't mean I don't want a Rebbe to go to. So yeah, Aseh L'cha Rav, but outside of that world, how many people are willing to be there like that? I know, I can't have my cake and eat it to. I guess we'll just have to turn to the J-blogger Rebbe.
Sh - Once you've got Reb O...
There's an all or nothing quality to it. If someone can't handle being a Chasid, they go completly of the derech in many cases.
In the yeshiva world, if can't handle it, you just end up being a regular modern orthodox guy.
Why is that?
In the yeshiva world, if can't handle it, you just end up being a regular modern orthodox guy.
Why is that?
I just found the title of this post funny. At first I thought it was a renounciation of your last post, which may as well have been entitled, "NOT looking for a teacher." Lol
# posted by 
: May 17, 2006 9:36 PM
: May 17, 2006 9:36 PM
I thought the same as anonymous. I figured everyone gave you so many arguments as to why you shouldn't diss teachers, that now you were actually looking for one. But knowing you, I'm sure that was intentional. :)
iim not sure if i agree with you on this one, but then again, when was the last time we agreed? give me some time to think about it....
DG - I'm not saying that the Yeshivish/Chasidish worlds are elitist (or that they're not). Elitist means you are excluding others in order to elevate your own status. I don't think that is the stated purpose of Yeshivish/Chasidish communities (although you could make an argument that on a cultural level, but not a theological level, that this is true. But they do believe in one path for everybody, and don't seem to recognize that there are other paths. For example, the Torah doesn't say we must speak Yiddish. It is a foreign tongue to begin with. A Chassidish group could require the speaking of Yiddish because it will keep the separate from the nations of the world, and thereby keep them focused on their spiritual growth. But I could easily see room for people to be frum without speaking Yiddish; they just have to find other ways to strengthen their Jewish identity. So I think Chassidus does still appeal to the common man. It's just that at this point, you're either on the inside or the outside. They don't do much preaching to the choir. Where the B'Sht fed the spiritual growth of the average religious Jew, other than Chabad reaching out the unafilliated, Chassidim today don't seem to reach out to people outside their sect. And the purpose of my post is that I feel like their is a lot of opportunity in the Modern Orthodox world to respond to such a melding of worlds. Just like Lakewood has planted Kollelim in suburbs around the country, I can imagine how quickly people would cling to Chassidche shteiblach being opened in their quiet suburbs. I mean in a good way...
Sh - I didn't know you swung that way. Not that there's anything wrong with that...What do you think about DG's comment that even the regular Orthodox world is elitist?
CYJ - I think it's a pretty explainable phenomenon. In Chassidic communities, people are taught that there is one right way. Period. If an individual doesn't grow according to that path, they are squeezed out; there is no tolerance or acceptance of their alternative path. While there are some elements of the non-Chassidic world that are equally as intolerable, there certainly is not the same universal standard that can be applied to all members. So one Black Hat rabbi might say Hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut while another might not. Any layman can choose where he fits in (to a certain extent). But in the Chassidic world, not only are there no options other than the way of the Rebbe, but they are taught that the Rebbe is supreme. Once you reject the Rebbe, you pretty much reject Gd, since the two are put hand in hand. There are definitely people who are able to differentiate between the two, and end up comfortably resettling between religious worlds. But if you are going to be excommunicated, essentially, for leaving your Chassidic world for even the more mainstream Yeshiva world, is it a surprise that once rejected, most former Chassidim will leave completely? They're going to be on their own, whether they end up in the modern frum world or the modern non-frum world.
Anon and MH - I'm glad my twenty minutes of titling wasn't wasted. Now you can start reading into the next layer...
Chan - Think about it again, and you'll realize when was the last time we disagreed? Keep thinking, and let me know what you find.
TB - I would agree with you on your understaning of the B"sht's original Chassidus, as well as your note that anyone can "taste" it, even from the outside. But what I don't understand is why we can't "live" it from the outside. According to how I understand the B"sht's teachings (which I am barely familiar with), there should be Rebbe's around the world, each chosen by his follower's because of his piety and insight. But what we have is a bunch of dynasties in Brooklyn and Bnai Brak. Where is the Grand Rebbe of Skokie?
Sh - I didn't know you swung that way. Not that there's anything wrong with that...What do you think about DG's comment that even the regular Orthodox world is elitist?
CYJ - I think it's a pretty explainable phenomenon. In Chassidic communities, people are taught that there is one right way. Period. If an individual doesn't grow according to that path, they are squeezed out; there is no tolerance or acceptance of their alternative path. While there are some elements of the non-Chassidic world that are equally as intolerable, there certainly is not the same universal standard that can be applied to all members. So one Black Hat rabbi might say Hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut while another might not. Any layman can choose where he fits in (to a certain extent). But in the Chassidic world, not only are there no options other than the way of the Rebbe, but they are taught that the Rebbe is supreme. Once you reject the Rebbe, you pretty much reject Gd, since the two are put hand in hand. There are definitely people who are able to differentiate between the two, and end up comfortably resettling between religious worlds. But if you are going to be excommunicated, essentially, for leaving your Chassidic world for even the more mainstream Yeshiva world, is it a surprise that once rejected, most former Chassidim will leave completely? They're going to be on their own, whether they end up in the modern frum world or the modern non-frum world.
Anon and MH - I'm glad my twenty minutes of titling wasn't wasted. Now you can start reading into the next layer...
Chan - Think about it again, and you'll realize when was the last time we disagreed? Keep thinking, and let me know what you find.
TB - I would agree with you on your understaning of the B"sht's original Chassidus, as well as your note that anyone can "taste" it, even from the outside. But what I don't understand is why we can't "live" it from the outside. According to how I understand the B"sht's teachings (which I am barely familiar with), there should be Rebbe's around the world, each chosen by his follower's because of his piety and insight. But what we have is a bunch of dynasties in Brooklyn and Bnai Brak. Where is the Grand Rebbe of Skokie?
Masmida- It's a misconception that died two hundred and fifty years ago that Chassidim are simple people with little understanding of Torah and Halacha. There were tons of Talmidei Chachamim amongst the early Chassidim that didn't become Rebbelach.
"-chassidishe shteiblach being opened in their quiet suburbs-" but they are, at least by chabad. on the other hand, i understand if that's not 'counted' - cuz they are more outreach centers than chassidishe shteiblach....
# posted by : May 18, 2006 11:54 AM
: May 18, 2006 11:54 AM
Sh - That's reassuring. Hopefully, I could jump into any world and fit right in. It's a dream, but I like idealism.
N - The fact that there were many Talmidei Chachamim amongst the early Chassidim (such as Ger), doesn't directly contradict her point. The attractiveness to the movement was in its simplicity, but that doesn't mean it was bunk that only the stupid could by. That's like saying that Shlomo Carlebach had no tone-deaf admirers. You can still appreciate the universal truths.
Anon - Exactly. And the Shluchim are even classified separately within the Chabad world as "exposed" people. Certainly that is meant to draw people in, not serve as an excuse for Chassidim to de-centralize.
DG - Frankly, I'm a little shocked that you specifically have this viewpoint ("can't we just partaay!"). There is a difference between separatist and elitist. Men and women can have separate roles, for example, but neither has to be implicity superior. So too with the Jewish nation. Do we have to be distinct in many ways to accomplish our mission? Yes. But that doesn't mean we are better. And certainly, elitist, which implies pushing others out, is not part of our purpose.
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N - The fact that there were many Talmidei Chachamim amongst the early Chassidim (such as Ger), doesn't directly contradict her point. The attractiveness to the movement was in its simplicity, but that doesn't mean it was bunk that only the stupid could by. That's like saying that Shlomo Carlebach had no tone-deaf admirers. You can still appreciate the universal truths.
Anon - Exactly. And the Shluchim are even classified separately within the Chabad world as "exposed" people. Certainly that is meant to draw people in, not serve as an excuse for Chassidim to de-centralize.
DG - Frankly, I'm a little shocked that you specifically have this viewpoint ("can't we just partaay!"). There is a difference between separatist and elitist. Men and women can have separate roles, for example, but neither has to be implicity superior. So too with the Jewish nation. Do we have to be distinct in many ways to accomplish our mission? Yes. But that doesn't mean we are better. And certainly, elitist, which implies pushing others out, is not part of our purpose.
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