Why Josh Can't Be Left Alone

Why are you so positive about Israel?(not)
 

Josh, Can you define "Celebrating?" It seems you gave more than enough reason to "celebrate" the miracles of Hashem on Israeli Independence Day. I know people that celebrate Yom Haatzmaut by reciting Tehillim or learning with more fervor, etc. Are you anti all these sentiments, as well, or just the "holidization" of today, ie. parades, blue and white, and dare i say it, saying Hallel with a beracha? This is not intended to be condescending so please don't read it as such. I just happen to be struggling with this matter myself. Your input would be helpful. Thanks! Chag Sameach! (That was put there to see how'd you react!)
 

Ok, I am sorry to say that people like you are just plain wrong and disturbing to me. You can look at a miracle, like us finally coming back to israel after thousands of years, coming to our home that G-d says is ours throughout the torah, and you dont care enough to thank Him? Do you say hellel without a bracha even? If not, what do you lose by saying hallel without a bracha?? There is no issur in seeing something like this and thinking its worthy of parising Hashem without a "bracha levatala" if for some reason you think it is one.
Your reasoning is flawed on a thousand levels. Israel is not a false messiah to anyone. It is a home and a better place to be Jewish and to serve Hashem. That is what it means to everyone who celebrates yom haatzmaut.
To say something as rediculous as that Israel causes people to basically not follow Judaism but cuases them to follow Israel as a false idol is just plain foolish. There is more Torah being learned in israel in a single day than you can dream of. There are so many Jews who have become closer to Hashem through visits to israel, whther orthodox kids going for the year , or a unaffiliated person on birthright. SOOO many people have been helped by Israel. To think that is not worth thanking Hashem for is plain idiotic.
You see, what I really think is that you are one of those people who doesnt celebrate it because they think they are "too frum". THAT bothers me more than anything on this earth.
-concerned jew
 

people have given their lives to secure Israel so you have the ability to go visit the Kotel, walk down the streets of Yerushalayim, learn there and become closer to Hashem, (if you didnt, i know many many people do during their year in israel), and you do not think this is worthy of celebration?? Please do not take israel for granted. Its insulting.
 

Josh,

You might have really opened a can of worms here. But I'm glad to see you haven't changed much on this issue since Yeshiva.
 

Um, Josh. Explain how "Israel is a false prophet of the Jewish people?" And she may be a false messiah or false idol (people worship Israel? come on...) but why should that affect your feelings towards her. It may be how you view it but a little known thing is that the traditional Yom Ha'atzmaut day wish is "Moadim lesimcha legualah shlemah," that we should have our celebration in hapiness leading towards a complete redemption (and the coming of messiah).
Say you were Christian, would you not be celebrating God's miracles b/c it's turned into such a commericalized holiday?
I think you left your comments too open ended so, yes, expand.
 

I've got a few mid-day minutes, so I'll try and respond to a few points, although I'm going to skip past any deeper arguments right now. One thing I did notice is that a bunch of comments skewed my post as being close-minded, when I specifically went out of my way to appreciate the good along with the bad. That should show you that there is much reason carefully laid out behind the shortness of my post. Feel free to question and to critique, because I want to hear the reasons for what you do too.

Neph - you know me well!

SW/FM - Um, I think I was three up, three down. Hardly an unbalanced approach (at least by empirical standards).

RWAC- If this clarifies things for you, then your seminary really sheltered you. I couldn't have been much more vague than I was. There are a lot more points you need to know to understand what I meant, and if my bullet points alone serve as your backup, you will be no more clued in than your seminary. As far as going to town in Israel, there is a good chance that had to do with the raucus environment more than any ideological exceptions.
 

It's only a fake to those who see it taht way.
 

Anon1 - Your question of what I mean by celebrating was taken as open minded. However, it starts with the assumption that there is something to celebrate. I'm not big into non-religious celebrations, at least in the sense that I can't define them as celebrations. I can have a BBQ or a parade for anything; I wouldn't say, "hey, did you go to a parade today? Oh, I guess you didn't celebrate." I think those things aren't really meaningful in the religious context. Possibly harmless, but certainly aren't ways of recognizing goodness in a deeper sense, just affiliation with a cause in a superficial sense. As far as celebrating in religious ways, there are obviously religious questions to answer before it is appropriate. But before you talk about celebrating, you have to figure out if what is being celebrated is something that you should really celebrate. Feel free to ask further, but if I go through every nuance, this'll be a book, not a comment, which will hold true for all my responses.

Anon CJ - Again, you start with the false assumption that there is something to celebrate, and that I am not properly recognizing Gd by acknowledging it. But good and bad things happen every day through the hand of Gd, do we recite Hallel for all of them? There is a specific Halachic framework for reciting Hallel, for one. But what are you saying Hallel for? For a few secular Jews declaring an independent state? That's a miracle? Or are you letting secular celebrations determine your religious ones? As far as your specific objections, it's a shame you apparently didn't read through my whole post. I wrote that we should be thankful that Israel is a place we can all go and be safe. When I said it is a false Messiah, I mean specifically that many religious Zionists view the State of Israel in a Messianic context. I exaggerated by calling it a false Messiah, as I certainly don't know any better than anyone else whether it is or isn't. But, in my mind, nobody can prove that this is a Messianic event (Reishit Semichat Geulateinu), and if it turns out not to be, then that leaves the Jewish people in the same precarious spot as with past false Messianic movements, such as Shabtai Tzvi. Also you seem upset that I don't recognize Israel today as a source of Torah learning and inspiration to many. Um, that was my first and third point in the "positives" category. But at the same time as these positive developments, we can't ignore the vast majority of Jews who view Israel as their Judaism. Sending a check, participating in Israel day, visiting once a year, that is their "frumkeit." Sorry, but those aren't mitzvos. They're not bad, and they're great ways to keep people from being forever lost, but these people have replaced the Torah with Israel. Not everyone, but many. Like probably a majority of Jews in America. But if I was too frum to be thankful for Israel, I probably wouldn't have dedicated equal space towards acknowleding the gift that is Israel. The fact that I ultimately see the State of Israel as a non-religious entity and therefore don't force their existence into my religious practice shouldn't be taken as a "black or white" approach. In fact, it's proof that I have carefully questioned every assumption fed me by those around me, and come to a more balanced, personal approach. Have you?

Anon 3 - First of all, Yom Ha'atzmaut is not about recognizing those that have died for Israel. In the Israeli calendar, that is for the day before, Yom Hazikaron. In my calendar, that is accomplished on Yizkor, when we say a special prayer for those soldiers. Again, I question why people start with the assumption that just because a secular state establishes a day it therefore needs to be absorbed into a religious framework.

Again, apologies to all, but I'm already late for work. I hope to finish replying tonight.
 

Josh, i am sorry, but you didnt asnwer my question.
It is stil insulting that you call israel "a state formed by some secular jews" and even so, who cares?!? Who cares who started it...in fact, according to the Grah, the Jewish redemption will be started by those who are at a lower level. But regaurdless, that has nothing to do with it. Judaism is flourishing, more Jews are learning, and we have a reason to say Hallel....according to most orthodox rabbis (of course some sects of Chasidim excluded). I think there is pretty good presidence in the Rabbeim at YU, where you went, who DO say hallel. THAT is the celebration. eating a blue and white cookie doesnt count and I agree with you on that, but to not care that such an amazing open miracle can occur recently and you dont think its worth thanking Hashem because it happened to be done by secular jews is pure nonsense.
-concerned Jew
 

to compare israel to good and bad things that happen every day is just plain foolish. How you can forget miracles that easily is beyong me so let me refresh your memory. 1948, we get to freely move to and live in israel for the first time in 2000 years. 1948, we are also attacked by pretty much every surrounding country, we dont even have an army, and not only do we win, but we get more of our holy land in the process!! 1967, we beat 6 arab coutries in 6 days getting even more land, more Jews moving to israel, and NOTHING like this has ever been done. Its a military victory that experts refuse to go into becuae its not explainable. THOSE are not every day miracles. And whether they happened by secular or orthodox jews or a combination, its very much worth thanking G-d for (at the very least without a brach!)

In addition, your discrimination towards secular Jews as not being worthy of prasie or care makes you seem very high on yourself and doesnt help your arguement.
 

Shosh - Thanks for sharing your ambivalence. Obviously, Israel and Yom Ha'atzmaut have a complex relationship with Jewish theology, and aren't so black and white.

Dud- As far as the false prophet, my intention is that the State of Israel, intended or not, speaks on behalf of the Jewish people, both within the Jewish world and to the non-Jewish world. It determines who is a Jew, who can pray at the Western Wall, and how to react to terrorists. As the Jewish State, people assume that this is the Jewish stance. But as a secular state, it can't set the pace for a religion. It is a false prophet in that it sends out instructions, acting as the mouthpiece of the Jewish people, when it is in fact wholly unqualified to do so. Like a false prophet, it leads people away from the Torah. I'm not saying that people aren't drawn closer to the Torah as a result, but a false prophet is anyone who instructs the Jewish people to cross even one of our laws. It's not about a holiday that is commercialized or secular, it's about a cause for celebration that is secular. If I were a Canuck like you, could I possibly celebrate Boxing Day?

E - That is a fair critique. The difference between Israel and other Jewish groups that lead people astray is their intention. Lubavitch isn't inherently anti-Jewish because some see it as Messianic, even while I see the same risks. Can Daf Yomi be misused? Sure. But the point is that those are intended for spiritual growth, and it is those not following the intention of those groups that are led astray. But Israel is all those false beliefs in its founding. It is a secular state, set up by secular Jews. So why should I embrace it as inherently Jewish, when it was never intended as such? And I'm not sure why I should celebrate such as an accomplishment.

DG - No doubt you can always reflect. One of my issues is that people feel that because a secular state adopts a holiday, it therefore must be included in our religious calendar. The State made Yom HaShoah. But in a religious caledar we have Tisha B'av and other fast days for this purpose. So just because a secular state made a holiday means it should be adopted as religious significance? What is Yom Ha'atzmaut? Does it mark a victory? No, it took place before any wars. So I would ask all of you to think about what you are buying into by thinking you are performing a natural recognition of Gd's miracles by saying Hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut, if the Posek you are following is Ben Gurion and not a Ben Torah. Think outside of the box. But keep thinking.

P - Obviously those that believe don't see it as fake. But look back at traditional Judaism, and tell me if you want to stake all your belief on some assumption you can't prove. If Iran nukes Israel tomorrow (Gd forbid), what then of our people? My faith won't be shattered, but what of yours? Keep praying!

Anon CJ - Please don't think that I consider the acts of secular Jews as irrelevant. My intention was not on the who, but on the what. It is a secular state. It isn't founded on Torah. It isn't intended to further Torah. To take that creation and say it is a miracle for Torah is quite a leap. Could it be the beginning of the redemption? Sure. Was the Holocaust the beginning? Sure, just like all history is leading up to that point. So what if you and I can both feel it near? We aren't there yet, so why are we celebrating?

Next Anon (can you guys please make up names so I can tell you apart? Either choose "Other" when posting and make something up, or just sign something unique at the end of your comment, like "Concerned Jew" did, so I can tell you apart) - Again, all the miracles you point out took place after Yom Ha'atzmaut, so I wonder why you feel so strongly about this day being fit for Hallel. America defeated the British by the same lopsided standards (arguably), and in winning provided us with great freedoms. Why don't we say Hallel? Reform Judaism was founded in the 1800's, and has since kept many people attached to their Jewish roots. Why don't we say Hallel for its founding?

EC - Thanks, and we'll miss you. Hope all is well.

Just a few general points. First, people have to step back and look at the state as a whole. Who is it, what does it do, and how does that fit into Jewish tradition? Think of it like Brandeis - it enables a lot of Jewish people to do things, but isn't a spiritual entity. So why should I support it spiritually? Second, as far as Yom Ha'atzmaut, look at the day itself, and what it's roots are. Why should this be recognized in a spiritual sense, and how? The rules of Hallel are complex, and just saying it "without a beracha" is not so simple. Rav H. Schachter at YU Paskens that it must be said without a Beracha after davening, for example, because we can't play with the Seder HaTefilot. But the overarching point is I don't understand why we secular beliefs are being used as the basis for religious beliefs. That is very dangerous indeed.

I want to make sure that my recognition of the positive contributions isn't overlooked. Despite my distance from the State on a religious level, I appreciate much of what it has done on a secular level. I appreciate many of the economic and social improvements it has made in the Middle East, the freedom it has given to religious Jews, and, yes, the divine hand that is evident in what plays out there. All I do is question the assumptions.
 

Josh..I agree with you as well...
While we have to thank G-d for every good thing he does to us..
Should we say Hallel on Independence Day because it created a haven for Jews to live in peace?
Suppose the British stayed on and created a flourishing Democracy and millions of jews would be living in Palestine in peace...would that be any less of a perfect arrangement?
 

I read recently....that a few months before the 6 Day War the CIA put out its report on the Middle East..
In it ..it says if there were to be a war ..we'd be shocked if it took Israel more than a week to beat the Arab armies..!

Where's the miracle?
 

Josh, I'd suggest you turn off anon commenting. It's so annoying that people can't come up with a name. People, there's the other option on Blogger. Use it.
 

The bottom line is that the people here who are taking having a country and a place to live freely, learn freely, and be protected for granted are the reason there are still troubles in israel today.
Why? After the 67 war, we got cocky in israel, people started thinkin it was them that won, and thought they didnt need G-d. After that?? Wars got tougher and more people died. What you guys, Josh included, are doing now is taking the greatest gift G-d has given us in recent years and diminishing it and that doesnt make you people "more frum", it makes you ignorant and if anyting, less frum. Dont take miracles for granted.
And to whoever said that israeli wars can be explained, tell that to the american army, who doesnt teach the israeli wars for the very reason of them not being explainable.
-concerned Jew
 

CJ,

I have no idea where you're getting your information about Israel's wars. All the wars are easily explainable on a rational level.
 

josh - going to be "gutsy" and remind you about the tag again.

mh
 

nephtuli and geore, i am taking the information from a first hand story from a baal teshuvah who became religious after being in the american army and being told that the wars couldnt be explained by his teachers and commanders.
Where do you get your info from exactly?? Probably not as reliable a source...i am just guessing. But also, your resorting to pointless name calling is pretty pathetic as well.
-CJ
 

cj - I've heard that story from a Rabbi in shul, an anecdote like many Rabbi's tell which they take artistic license with.
 

anonymous...you are right...how could it be true if you heard it from a rabbi?? Must be made up then....idiot
 

CJ Whatever story you've been told, I know what I learned in my National Security Policy course in college taught by a former memeber of the National Security Counsel.
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

In May 1967 the Egyptian Army had a nominal strength of around 150,000, but 50-70,000 of its soldiers, including its elite units, were fighting in the Yemen civil war, leading some of Nasser's commanders to the belief that Egypt was in no position to fight. Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, with each change requiring the redeployment of troops to a new location, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles. Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in forward fortifications, and the bulk of Egyptian forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance, instead ordering a forward defence of the Sinai. In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan in order to bring unbearable pressure on Israel.

Jordan's army had a total strength of 55,000, but it too was embroiled in the fighting in Yemen. Syria's army had 75,000 soldiers.

The Israeli army had a total strength, including reservists, of 264,000. James Reston, writing in the New York Times on May 23, 1967 noted, "In discipline, training, morale, equipment and general competence [Nasser's] army and the other Arab forces, without the direct assistance of the Soviet Union, are no match for the Israelis... Even with 50,000 troops and the best of his generals and air force in Yemen, he has not been able to work his way in that small and primitive country, and even his effort to help the Congo rebels was a flop."
 

Two points.

1. What does the Six Day War have to do with celebrating or not celebrating Yom Ha'Atzmaut? I celebrate Yom Yerushalayim much more easily and excitedly than I do Yom Ha'Atzmaut!

2. Why I did celebrate Yom Ha'Atzmaut (inasmuch as I could, lying on my couch in a Nyquil-induced stupor):

1) Israel is the political manifestation of the existential fact that Jews all over the world can visit and even live in Eretz Yisrael, our land promised to us by G-d, which they could not do before, for literally almost 2000 years.

Sorry, that's it. I only need one reason.

The fact that some individuals (although I don't think "many" is correct) may misunderstand and think that Israel in and of itself is Geulah, does not negate its value to me. (And I think "false Messiah" is really a very specific term that is inappropriately/incorrectly applied here, and you are usually much more careful with your words than this - I'm a little disappointed, Josh).
 

IIRC, the numbers on the Arab side were a lot higher than the Wiki article makes them out to be, but the basic point is true. After the Israeli air force raid on the Egyptian airforce, the war was over.
 

I did not celebrate Yom Ha'atmaut either. Acknowledge it, but not celebrate.

This past Shabbos (which was after the holiday past), my neighbor, Rebbetzin Katz gave a good explanation as to what makes Yom Ha'atzmaut 'awkward'. I falls during what is essentially a mourning period. Yet another example of how the State of Israel likes to trump and/or disregard how Hashem has directed the Jewish nation to operate.
 

Josh, before making a decision as to what you should do on a day like Yom Haaztmaut and why or why not to celebrate it, why not ask a Rav you trust from YU? Why make up sad excuses about fase idols and that are just nonsense at best? Call up Rav Goldvicht, an israeli, and ask him what Yom Haatzmaut means to someone from Israel. Call Rav Blau or any of the other many Rabbeim from YU who celebrated with the live music and danced and said hallel and went to the Tekes at YU to sa special prayers for Yom Haatzmaut. Ask them why before you make a holier than thou decision about not praising Hashem.
-CJ
 

George, Anon, Neph - I haven't taken a position that the war is or isn't "miraculous". It certainly was with the hand of Gd, as all things are. And if it was a miracle, it certainly was through the natural course of nature (when of the definitions of when we say Hallel is only if it was a miracle outside the course of nature). So I'm not taking a position on military strategy here, but questioning the underlying value.

CJ - I want you to know that I have studied the issue extensively. This post doesn't represent the extent of my questioning. I have grown up in the Mizrachi world, and have heard all the reasons for. I have spoken with many people before coming to the conclusions I have. I happen to believe that Jewish Nationalism is a farce, and as attractive as it may seem, just guides people away from the true path of Torah. That is my opinion. I don't walk out of davening on Yom Ha'atzmaut or make any other protests. I do what I do, and feel comfortable answering to H"KBH, and know that everyone else will have to do the same for their actions.

Neph - I won't turn off anon commenting. As annoying as it is that people can't make up a name so that we know when they come back and add another comment they are the same people, I value the input that a one time contributor can have. All the anons have been levelheaded and helpful (except one above), and I'm not willing to give that up.

MH - What's the matter, my blog doesn't tell you enough about me already?

MS - It's one the dangers that I roll up into my issue #1. A secular group can't be determining issues of relevance to the Frum world, such as our holidays. The fact that people feel the need to absorb a secular holiday as a Jewish holiday does strike me as problematic. Had the Rabbis created their own holiday to recognize an independent miracle, perhaps my thinking would've ended in a different place.

Seth- I agree that Yom Ha'atzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim are unrelated. If you have your reason that you see a need for celebration, then that is all you need. If your Hashkafa is consistent, that is the only support you need about which Pesak you follow. I happen to think that in many ways the State of Israel has muddied the situation in the Holy Land. Things are ok right now, but I blame a lot of the antagonism between the Jews and Arabs in the Middle East on the aims of the Zionist camp. That's not to say that we'd be at peace if it weren't for them and we could more as freely around as we do today. But the exclusive ideology of the Zionists (as opposed to the Jews who lived their for generations happily under non-Jewish rulers), fueled the sentiment of keeping them out. The fact that today, all mainstream peace solutions worry about demographics and are unwilling to allow for a true democracy shows an attitude that is bound to lead to conflict. But I think I just opened a Pandora's box.