Why Josh Can't Be Left Alone

I loved your piece and agree. It is not being gay that is the problem - it is the pursuit of lustful abandon outside of marriage - whether gay or not - that is the problem.

G-d bless you, indeed.
 

I agree. I posted similar thoughts awhile back.
 

...and how do you feel about lesbians?
 

I agree and disagree. I agree that it cannot be stopped neccesarily but i also think it has to do partially with society's view on the subject. I think there are many more gay people now (and i know some of that has to do with people supressing it in the past becuase it was frowned upon, but still) than there were before it was socially acceptable.

And as long as someone doesnt act on it, than its not a bad thing, but someone active should be forwned upon by the community no less than a man who cheats on his wife would be.

I also think that someone who acts on it isnt religious. end of story. If someone does everything EXCEPT keep shabbas, would they be "religious"? no. If someone did everything EXCEPT keep kosher, they too would be not religious. If anything, being actively gay is AT LEAST on par with those in the torah if not worse.
-(different anonymous)
 

It seems like everybody from Elster back didn't read Josh's post. He clearly frowns upon homosexual acts.
Good call Shosh, makes sense to me. I had a roomate who first "outed" himself to me after I saw a file on his computer named, of all things, "gay porn." I mentioned it to him and he admitted he was gay. He has since moved out and is living with his boyfriend but I made it clear to him that I do not support the lifestlye choice but still regard him as a friend and respect his decisions. When I met his boyfriend I said that the friend of my friend is my friend, but I don't want to hear about their relationship. As far as I know, it's kosher. Too bad he's not shomer shabbos. :-(
 

A - It's wonderful when people divided by so many differences can unite on love, not hate, but still draw strong lines. Thanks for commenting.

JB - It seems a few others have as well. We should all feel better that there are plenty of tolerant people out there, even while they hold their religion on a pedestal. Many try to label relgion as the harbinger of hate, so it's truly moralizing to hear that so many have reconciled the restrictions and weaknesses of man.

A - Pretty much the same way. Although, somebody once phrased a great question, which maybe somebody can answer. Lesbianism isn't forbidden in the Bible. The general consensus is that the Rabbis forbade it, if I understand correctly. But there is a rule in Judaism that the Rabbis only make rules to safeguard the limits of Biblical mandates. So if there is no Biblical concern for lesbian activity, then what are the Rabbis hoping to prevent by forbidding the behavior? I suppose the answer is that the intrinsic problem with lesbian activity is in its relation to gay activity, so from that root stems the extended prohibitions. But I'm just guessing. Although, with all the boldness and eloquence of your question, you were probably looking for a different kind of answer...

Diff Anon - I did touch on the issue of how many more there are today, so I'll elaborate. I think there may be people who aren't truly gay, but are exploring, and don't recognize the distinction between homosexual eroticism and true gay orientation. Whether you blame all of the increased psychological "abnormalities" in our society on moral decay or on water pollution, though, there is more of it. But that doesn't mean we should treat the individuals with any less respect and dignity. Also, we have to distinguish between two kinds of homosexuals. There is the open and unrepentant gay person, and there is the struggling individual. Keeping any Mitzva is hard when you have a strong desire to not keep the rules. Somebody who has sinned and continues to sin, can still be a religious person, whether that sin is homosexual behavior or Chillul Shabbos. The question is whether they still consider the sin to be wrong or not. The moment that the act goes from an unconquerable sin to a permitted act, then the person can no longer consider themselves religious in my opinion. In other words, you have to accept the objective Halacha to be frum. You may violate it, even regularly, but so long as you hold it as your ideal, and are doing your best to get to it, you still should be part of the community. But yes, like you said, I agree that once somebody says, "I openly violate one law in the Torah, and I don't care" then they can't be considered frum. That is my problem with gay pride. But so long as they don't push their open lifestyle as the truth, I still wouldn't write them off of the community. There are people who drive to my shul every week, and I wouldn't want them to stop coming. They might not be as observant as me, but I don't think they need to be marginalized, as long as they aren't trying to establish the norm. You never know what Gd plans for each person.

El - I fully admit to not having any backup as to my basis that gay people are wired that way. But even if you say that it is learned behavior, it only strengthens your obligation to extend them the undertanding that I suggest, since they have that ability to change. My point was that no matter how difficult their incompatible desires may be, even to the extreme, that is no reason to treat them in a derogatory manner in the name of Gd. To your second point, keep in mind that I'm in no way diminishing the severity of those who act on it. I'm just advocating towards understanding of people's struggles, because for some people this is as hard as keeping Shabbos, and yes, Shabbos is more severe. For the third point, I think you are referring to hypocrisy, not double standards. A double standard is when one person holds two different groups to different requirements. That equivalent would be if somebody said that heterosexuals could have sex outside of marriage, but homosexuals could not. Hypocrisy would say that if somebody said homosexuality was evil and disgusting and actually did it themselves. So in this sense, I think you're missing my point. We are supposed to extend that understanding of a person forced to lead a double life, whether it be a gay and frum man, a friend who isn't shomer negia, or somebody who uses his computer for forbidden things. The message is the same - as you note - that nobody is perfect, struggling is normal, and we should spend more time treating them as people going through parallel, albeit not similar, struggles to our own. The frum community could acheive more recognizing that people are complex instead of just pointing writing off people as freaks. Isn't everyone who aspires to frumkeit imperfect? Does that make everyone a hypocrite, because they preach a moral system that they haven't acheived? I think there is a fine line, but in my opinion, unless somebody is telling others to uphold a rule that they don't even try and stick to themselves, then they aren't a hypocrite. Using our weaknesses as an opportunity to inspire others in those same areas is laudable, not shameful, just so long as we try to keep growing and are honest with our own weaknesses. I could probably write a whole post about "Hypocrisy and the Religious Struggle," but that probably wasn't the intent of your comment.

DW - Thank you for providing your clarifying viewpoint. From my perspective, in general, I try to view the Torah through the lens of "Deracheha Darchei Noam" - that it provides guidance to all, and doesn't hurt anyone. In my mind a "frum" person who hates people with a gay orientation is using religion as a tool for hate, which contradicts this idea. Everyone has an ability to grow through the Torah's guidelines without being hurt, both by the rules and by the rule followers.

Sh - Thanks for that great example. I guess it just takes awhile for this viewpoint to be accepted by the common man. It's a shame that most frum people will never hear what a frum gay person goes through, because they'd probably be more sensitive to the difficulties they face. It's a shame how many people are turned off to religion as a result, when really they should be a source of inspiration.

DYS - That's all we can do, accept them and let them make their own decisions. Who knows, he may not be shomer Shabbos, because he didn't think the community would accept him because of his orientation? That is a shame. We can learn so much from people of all perspectives, and I admire the fact that you left the door open with him. You aren't his Mashgiach, but you can show him that he can be respected. If more people treat him like you did, maybe he'd find a place for himself in the community, and want to find ways to be more frum, if he isn't already.

Thanks everyone for keeping this sensitive discussion so respectful!
 

You're right, but since I'm one of thos who are anti-gay, it's tough for me to agree.

BTW- I updated.
 

Hear, Hear!

My only thing is about being 100% frum and gay. There are many unsolved Halachic issues surrounding gay and lesbian lifestyles.

Granted, women can be radical lesbian feminists who never marry and never have children, but if they keep kosher, Shabbat and tznius, then they're OK Halachically. However, is it necessary for a woman to go to the mikveh after having relations with her lesbian lover with whom she is in a long term, committed live-in relationship? Big halachic question there.

As far as I know, the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply is incumbent only upon men. Will Halacha allow them to adopt? In fact, is the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply even fulfilled by adoption, in the first place?

How will Jewish Law acknowledge long term committed relationships between gays and lesbians? I know a number of gay Jewish men, some of whom keep kosher and Shabbat and only date Jewish men. I think there is even a yahoo group for gay Jewish men to chat and meet each other, at least in the NY area. I met a gay Jewish couple once through a guy who goes to the minyan I go to in Manhattan. They go to a nice warm fuzzy liberal-minded Conservative Egalitarian shul that it oh so gay friendly - that is until they wanted to have a commitment ceremony at the shul. The Rabbi said no and I think they may have gone to a Reform shul (that they think is weak Halachically because they are Conservative Jews and not Reform)or perhaps to Canada or Massachusetts. And I have heard of Reform Rabbis that won't do gay or lesbian commitment ceremonies.

What should gay and lesbian couples made up of two committed Jews do when no Rabbi of almost any sort will sanction their relationship?

The degree of acceptance of gays and lesbians in the Jewish community is a tricky question in just about every stream of Judaism. We want to be inclusive of all Jews that want to identify and participate in Jewish life but yet we want to be true to ourselves as Jews.

A great idea would be for brave rabbis to create a sort of Halachic form of civil marriage. Civil marriage is more easily done in Israel where there is a state that can create separate civil and religious marriages. Quite frankly, Israel's record on gay rights makes me proud. Compared to the US they are pretty progressive on gay rights. If I were a lesbian, it might be very tempting to make aliyah (then again, I am biased since I have already made aliyah and support other Jews doing so as well).

The main question is then how Jews will handle gay life in the Disapora, where we sort of have half a legal structure since the so called "Emancipation".

Maybe there can be a sort of same-sex ketuba with different consideration given to seal the contract, or maybe both parties giving consideration and/or mutually writing up their own ketubot.

Unfortunately, it seems creativity like this is not easily found in the mainstream Orthodox Rabbinical world. Please prove me wrong if I am so.
 

One last thing, would you like to be the man or woman married to someone who is a closet gay man or lesbian?

I know of someone who is frum and has apparently struggled with their sexual orientation. His wife most likely has no idea. What if 10 years and 2 kids from now he makes up his mind that he's gay? Then what? Is it fair to the straight spouse, let along the gay/lesbian spouse, to force heterosexual marriage on them (or marriage to a gay man/lesbian) in order to produce children?

And what of those children when Mom or Dad comes out of the closet?
 

can anyone explain where their accent comes from?! Its not like they all come from the same part of fire island?!
 

What do you mean homosexuals can't be cured? That Rabbi dude in Trembling Before God insisted that if that gay dude kept flicking himself with the rubberband around his wrist he would be cured? Do you mean Rabbis make stuff up?? Na uh! Good piece Joshmeister. Come visit.
 

yes, but you misspelled it. the correct spelling is 'hypocrisy'.
 

DG - I fully agree with your points 1, 2, and 4. But I must disagree with 3. While Odox Judaism cannot sanction homosexuality, I find it impossible to assign that to it's impact on demographics. Odoxy can't sanction homosexuality because it is a sin, period. Regardless of whether they have kids (which they can), we can't reduce Jewish lifestyle to an effort to continue our tradition (for what purpose?). The only reason to live a frum lifestyle is to bring more truth into our lives, as a result of the beliefs of the faith and the actions it espouses. In fact, in some cases, we do condone birth control.

Ch - I'm confused (and maybe disappointed), how can you agree with me while dismissing my suggestions since you are "anti-gay?" How do you define anti-gay? Maybe you aren't homosexual yourself, but if you do object to homosexuality more strongly than I do, why? Is it because of religious thought? Personal bias? I'm not condemning, I just want to understand your statement. (And I did check out your update- inspirational to all, as usual!)

TR - I want to address your main points - all excellent. As far as the unsolved Halachic issues, I'm not sure if the ones you mentioned are issues (such as going to the Mikveh), but there are certainly many that need to be addressed for non-mainstream members. For example, who can a gay person turn to when they have questions about what practices are worse than others? So there definitely needs to be a more approachable and aware Rabbinate in terms of being able to seriously guide individuals with alternative orientations. (How about defining the limits of Begged Isha - the prohibition of a man wearing women's clothing - for the transgendered? Or is a sex-change allowed? Not questions I need to ask, but that doesn't mean that a frum Jew who has that question shouldn't be able to receive a non-judgemental, yet Halachic, response. As far as I know, the Mitzvah of procreation is equally applicable to men and women. As far as your call for Halachic recognition ofa a committed homosexual relationship, I must fully disagree with you there. I don't think there is any way to recognize a forbidden relationship. Furthermore, even if the gay couple were to officially swear off any forbidden activity, I still think that the framework of marriage is intended for the hetersexual relationship. I don't think an homosexual relationship even qualifies Halachicly. We view marriage as two secular and relgious events. But in my opinion, there is only one framework for it - the religious view. In my mind, the secular instituion is a violation of church/state separation, but that is for another post. So there is no way to fit a circle into a square hole. We can appreciate the people despite their differences and respect their struggles, but I'm not sure how a religion that calls the behavior abominable can be expected to officiate over it. I don't think it's a failure of Rabbinic creativity. Rabbinic creativity would be allowing a couple to use birth control, even though we are generally against it, because it might help them with their household bliss. To quote Blu Greenberg (which I don't do often), "Where there is a Rabbinic will, there is a Rabbinic way." The Rabbinic will (in disagreement to Greenberg's use of the term) is based on Biblical will, in my opinion. Where the Torah willed peace to reign in the Jewish household, the Rabbinic will was inspired to find creative ways to enable it. But I don't think there is a Biblical will to creat homosexual family units. In fact, I'm pretty sure it would argue that they are a bad value, not a good one. We have to appreciate people's feelings, not sanction all of their choices. Which leads me to your second comment, I don't think anyone should marry a heterosexual as a cover up of their orientation. I agree that it is harmful to both parties, their children, and the community. It is by advocating the recognition and education of the homosexual nature of people to the frum community that I would hope that no person would need to be in the closet. Whatever decision they make, we should be able to find ways for those that are interested to live within a Torah community, whether they decide to live alone, marry an opposite gender homosexual, or some other aspiring, albeit challenging, solution that, yes, the Rabbis should help delineate instead of ignoring the problem.

Anon - I'll assume you weren't just making a wild attempt at humor. Obviously, as DG noted above, we have to be prescient that gay people come in all packages, not just the stereotypical ones. If there are any outword differences in common amongst many gay people, I would suggest that some result from the same internal differences that result in their orientation, while others are mirrored reflections of the gay person that the media portrays (also as DG pointed out).

S - Hollywood never lies! Because nobody fully understands the "cause" of homosexuality, I don't think we can say that any one approach is wrong. But we do have to create more diversity of thought within the frum world, so that if one approach doesn't appeal to one person there is another legitimate approach instead. I don't think the Torah takes a stand on whether homosexuality is innate or not, so there must be Rabbinic flexibility to explore both sides (no pun intended).

El - For a writer, word choice is everything...

Ch - You're too funny. The Rebbe must have taught spelling lessons...
 

I think there are 2 issues here.
A. Is there a place for someone who's gay in the frum community and
B. Is there a place for a gay person in a frum marrirage.
Should a gay person willingly subjucate a spouse to a marriage like that?
Should someone who's gay suffer a single life?
 

Last things first- I didn't learn how to spell from the Rebbe, I learned it from Bais Yaakov.

You need to hear my whole gantze opinion on ADD....and I don't think that having the tendency to be gay excuses it. If the person keeps halacha, then yasher koach. But it's not about being cured- it's about getting past it. If you're going to end up in a homosexual marriage, then I think you've stepped over the line. Sorry. I don't think that someone who hasn't found the strength to overcome being gay can truly be called frum. That doesn't mean we should discriminate against them, but it also doesn't mean we should accept homosexual behavior. If this is their view as a person, then fine. If they allow their lives to be dictated by it, then not fine. Not fine at all. We can accept them as people while not accepting their behavior. Your last sentence, I agree with. But I do think that one who is gay, and lets that fact rule his life, has reason to be ashamed. Though there's no denying that the Orthodox community has to stop burying its face in the sand (and if my [former] teachers knew that I was discussing this.....I don't think they'd believe it....me? Knowing what homosexual is? Gasp! Es pas nisht. Yup, maybe es pas nisht, but necessary- you can't bury your face in the sand and deny society. Sorry.
 

Hope you don't mind Josh- but I just bashed your first paragraph.
 

Sorry, the second.
 

D - Good questions. I think there is a place for a gay person in the frum community. Even stronger, there has to be. Otherwise, we are saying that Torah isn't something that everyone can live, which is impossible of a universal truth. We just have to analyze whether the frum community we have established is fully extending all the opportunities to gay people that it can. I think there is a gay person in a frum marriage, because I think that many gay people also want to raise families. Will they have the same feelings towards their spouses that most frum marriages have? No. But I think they can build the same partnership in raising children as the next family. But that is only if they choose marriage. Perhaps that is a situation that is unappealing to them, and I couldn't force them into it. There are many heterosexual frum people who never marry, and we don't fault them. But I absolutely don't think that a gay person should marry under false pretenses. Whether they marry a homosexual or straight individual, I think they must be absolutely honest about their tendencies, just like a Shidduch would have to disclose any serious medical or psychological disorder. Any cover up is devastating. Are there ways that a gay frum person can find happiness without violating any commandments? In my opinion, absolutely. But they have to have the faith and drive to find their individual solution. It is up to us to accept them and their decision.

Ch - I hope you weren't offended about the Rebbe/spelling comment. I'm happy to hear at least one blogger is happy with her BY education. I suppose the fact that you feel comfortable discussing such sensitive issues openly without any weakness in your Avodas Hashem shows that you've made the most of your education. I think we both agree - my post focused less on the expectations of the gay individual and more on the community who must accept them. I don't advocate accepting their practice, or say that they can't overcome it if they want to. But just like we shouldn't let an ADD child go off the Derech because they haven't overcome their issue, we shouldn't be harsher on the gay individual. Yes, it's an aveira. But many people in our community do aveiros. We are all trying to do Teshuvah. As long as the person recognizes that practicing homosexuality is against Halacha, I don't think we should judge where they are in terms of Avodah. Should the person flaunt it and look for recognition? Absolutely not. But should they be able to admit their struggles just like somebody who has a hard time keeping kosher would, without being looked at as a freak? Definitely. I know you bashed my second paragraph officially, but I really think we agree here completely.
 

I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

Check out the winners of my caption contest Josh. I think you may like my choices!
 

OK, on that last point, we agree-that everyone should be able to admit their struggles without looking like a freak.
And no, I wasn't offended by the Rebbe/spelling comment, I laughed when I saw it. Glad to know that at least someone doesn't see Lubavitch as having bad grammar!
 

Josh, you really touched on a sensitive but crucial subject in modern-day Yiddishkeit. Our religion is ever the same, but ever-changing, adaptive to new circumstance, including new ta'avos, but steadfast and true.
In american media, to disapprove of the practice of homosexuality is to be ridiculed as an ignorant, backward, prejudiced redneck. And there is some truth to that, because I think we should all be empathic towards humanity's struggle with ta'ava, especially since we all share that struggle -just in different forms. But I know, for myself, that sometimes, perhaps due to that same modern media being rammed down my throat, I have to catch myself being "too" understanding, too open-minded. One of my teachers last year warned us all not to be too open-minded that our brain falls out...

Just as in almost every other area of Judaism, we all need to find the right balance. But I do pray that Hashem grants superhuman strength to those with this particular struggle.
 

im sure SOMEONE must have mentioned this by now, but: it says, WAY clearly, in the torah, when listing forbidden relationships, that men can not have relations with other men! hello! so one who does cannot possibly be a religeous jew- the two just clash. Amd i agree that all those who struggle with this ta'avah daily and suppress their tendencies are held in very high esteem in Hashem's eyes.
 

There are many forms of yetzer hara and it does no one any good to give into it. Do you also throw in the towel in the face of all other halachically related challenges?
 

First, congratulations on your move. Where in Jersey are you moving?

Secondly, What exactly would be the purposen of a gay man marrying a lesbian? They won't have relations with each other. They may not even get along. Gay men and lesbians often have little to do with each other even socially. I have encountered gay men who actively dislike women - should thes emen be forced to marry lesbians?

You would basically have a marriage with two people both sleeping with others outside the marriage, and knowing they would do so a priori - which seems to make a mockery of the institution of marriage itself.

I suppose the lesbian can be artificially inseminated by the gay man, but she could just as easily hit a sperm bank. And the gay guy could just adopt.

It seems the only reason for a gay man to marry a lesbian if so that they can look "normal" to everyone else in straight society. It sounds like a recipe for failure. Moreover, the said gays and lesbians might very well not want to do so, seeing as being a form of being in the closet.

When it comes to relationships, you can't really say, "We half-approve of your lifestyle". People want not only to have "deviant" physical relations, but to have long term relationships and form families. This cuts across sexual orientations. If you say being gay is OK you can't say, "Being gay is OK as long as you stay single and childless for the rest of your life." Being gay also means falling in love with people of the same sex. Think fo what you would be sentencing people to. You would be telling people not to fall in love - which is impossible.

It would just be more consistent to say that Jews are not allowed to be homosexuals at all and allow people to leave Judaism if they want to be out of the closet.
 

LV - Agree? Let's hear your thoughts. Open minds shouldn't go unchallenged.

Chansie - We're getting somewhere - expect a lot from everybody, but acknowledge that our struggles aren't the same. And I'm glad you can appreciate my, uh, abnormal sense of humor. How could I look down on Lubavitch? I wouldn't be here today...

OK - It could be that I'm being too open minded, to influenced by the liberal society around us. But regardless of the science, which may or may not be correct, the compassion is an integral part of Yiddishkeit. And I know my heterosexual friends each go through very different levels of struggle in their Yiddishkeit, so it's easy for me to extend this empathy to homosexuals too. That doesn't mean that if they accept to act on it, I'll overlook the impact on their Neshoma, or minimize the spiritual impact, but I'll still love them as people, frum or not frum, whatever decision they make.

Anon1 - I think everyone here agrees with you. But if somebody oversleeps through Minyan everyday, would you write them off so quickly?

Anon2 - There is no excuse for giving in. I may understand the Yetzer, but that doesn't allow it. Nobody says that a homosexual who gives in is making a good decision. But I do want everybody to know that he is making a hard decision, even if it's second nature to you.

Tr - Not sure yet. I'll probably start off in West Orange, and try out many other communities over Shabbos. That'll give me the best commute. The range of your comment really reflects what I was trying to accomplish. You close by suggesting that if I'm going to suggest such a farce of a relationship, I may as well encourage them to leave the fold. Essentially what I'm trying to accomplish is just the opposite of that. I'm trying to suggest alternate lifestyles that may work for them. I am by no means advocating pushing gay or lesbian people into unloving relationships. In my opinion, it may help some people remain frum by enabling them to have their own family and children, albeit in a romantically-loveless marriage. If they'd rather live alone, adopt, whatever, that's great, if they can find meaning in a frum lifestyle while permenently supressing their sexual appetite. Because if they do choose to practice homosexuality, I can't consider them frum, unless they do Teshuva (which can be a generous term). As I said before, I think Judaism is an universal truth, and therefore I try and find ways that everyone can find satisfaction and appreciate it.

Ay - Get some sleep. Nobody said as long as they do everything else Halachicly, they are frum, even if they have gay sex. I said that if they have gay inclinations, but don't practice them, they are frum. Gay behavior was never condoned Halachically, although I did say I wouldn't push them away, since they are no worse than any other 612 mitvah Jews that we welcome into our shuls. Alienating gay people from the frum community is a disgusting use of Gdliness as a weapon of hate. Feel free to condemn their acts, but feel free to sit down with them and give them the opportunity to grow with you. We all have the potential to be Baalei Teshuva.
 

josh- quick comment- when i mentioned being too open minded, it wasn't in reference too your post but a personal issue I have to deal with as a "liberal, open-minded, modern thinking, intelligent, good person" who is also "fiercely Jewish". I have to remind myself that homosexuality isn't something to root for, but a difficulty in many people's lives. See, I'm probably more "brainwashed" by the media than by seminary!