Why Josh Can't Be Left Alone

I think, in answer to your closing question, we are doing both.

This thing we call Yichus does hold weight, although, of course, not in all cases. And it's certainy not an equation (girl with yichus = great person/wife/mother). However, if the world was indeed running smoothly, we could infer a great deal about a person based on their lineage - that's the way it should be, and that's healthy.

The problem is that we're trying to maintain this today, when life and people are in constant motion. So, on one hand, we're reconnecting with out traditions, and on the other, we're cutting others out. And, yes - superficially.

But one should never say that lineage is unimportant or overrated. It's only because of the hurt and chaos the emphasis has caused that we hate it.

When, really, it's the hurt and chaos we should hate, not the tradition itself.
 

Yichus isn't worth a bowl of warm spit.

Or as my Rosh Yeshiva once said-It's real nice that you're a decendant from Rashi. But what about the thousand other great-great-great-great-great granfathers that you've had?
 

yichus atzmo is most important
 

I wish every person who claimed yichus was an honor to the linage rather than the other way around.
 

personally i dont get it. i understand wanting to marry someone from a similar family, someone whos grown up in a similar way, and i understand how yichus *might* affect that, but i'm not sure it is anywhere near the extent people make it. i might understand if yuou're talknig about someone's father or maybe grandfather, but to go back more than that is ridiculous..if you can go back 3-5-10 generations, well then ill go back to avraham avinu..
 

Isn't every Jew a descendant of Avraham - what yichus! If we each had the characteristics that he held, then every Jew would be an amazing person, with impeccable middos. Unfortunately, it doesn't really turn out that way.

I don't deny that I have gotten a lot from my parents, grandparents, etc. But I also have gotten a lot from my own personal growth and work on myself and the choices I have made for myself. It's a combination, and what it's really about is what a person does with the gifts they are given, including yichus. For some, it does make a huge difference and they can proudly point to their ancestors as helping mold who they are today. For others, not so much.

You have to look at the whole of a person, rather thank chalking everything up to who they had way back on their family tree.
 

Mim - So basically, we're taking a shortcut? We're hoping that we can count on the deeds of the past generations to predict the outcome of the future. That's not totally unexpected- many aspects of Shidduchim try to take shortcuts by finding predictors of a person's future decisions. People don't really care whether you use a plastic tablecloth on Shabbos; they just want to know your level of Kavod Shabbos. Likewise, people don't expect you to be the next Tosfos Yom Tov, just like Great-great-grandpa; they just want a quick indicator of your potential. Understandable, until, as you point out, the criteria become more important than the characteristics they are meant to reveal. But you're right- I shouldn't hate Yichus just because it's misused.

CWY - How warm is the bowl? I tend to agree - I'm uncomfortable with people who place religious significance on superficial things - be it Yichus, chassidishe singing, or fluffy Artscroll books. Not that there's anything wrong with it. But Judaism offers so much deeper levels that often take a lot of effort to appreciate. By grabbing on to the simple inspiration, we risk coming across as an opiate of the masses. Give me concrete, earned religion any day.

MH - After trying to figure out what you meant, I think you're saying that what a person makes of themself is more important than who their ancestors were. I agree. But is there no value in their family tree?

Mas - I tend to agree - people like to take the easy way out, telling stories about their forefathers instead of thinking about what stories people will tell of them. That doesn't mean that we can't be inspired by those who came before us. But it does mean that we have to find ways to add to the family history ourselves.

Mookie - I guess the question is, do people use Yichus as a way to measure similar families, or to "buy" into greater ones? I agree that we often want similar backgrounds. It's almost like looks- I can understand that a pretty girl wants a handsome guy. But I don't get it when an ugly girl is holding out for a handsome guy. It's not my job to say who is right for who. But at a certain point, it becomes a way of shopping around for a status symbol. And certainly we should be more concerned about our actual status than the theoretical merits of those who came before us.

Sh-ana - I suppose everyone agrees with you. Of course we all decend from the same father. But then how would we discriminate? Keep going through the family tree, of course - at some point we can find out who I am better than! But as you point out, we are handed are potential from our ancestors, so perhaps people are judging our potential as a result. Maybe somebody from a greater family has more potential. We just need to become better judges of how they use the potential than how much we have. My family comes from a long line of prominent Communists. So maybe I can use all that potential, and turn it around!
 

When I was in high school I used to wish i had "yichus" because the girls who did have yichus were treated better (or so I felt at the time). You say that "children definitely do take many of their traits directly from their parents"... well, if the parent is only interested in the kind of yichus that can be brought into their family, then the potential shidduch is probably also interested. If someone is only interested in what they can get out of a relationship, would you really want to be yichus-ed (or have yichus?) with them (to them?) (Now, I realize you didn't say anything about someone turning down a date with you because you didn't have yichus, but I couldn't think of any other way to write it except in shidduch terms [afterall, I'm a 20 year old frum female. lol.])
 

In my circles someone having 'yichus' is referred to someone who has special, important etc... great grandparents, grandparents, parents. Their families are 'known'.
Is yichus vital to a shidduch? NO! but it is a special concept going back to the time of Avrohom Avinu. Avrohom would not allow Yitzchok to marry one of Eliezer's daughters because he came from Bnei Canaan. Therefore Avrohom sent Yitzchok to find a wife from 'his house'. Rivkah's father served idols and Eliezer was a great man/follower to Avrohom Aveinu.
There are other times in the torah where the concept of 'yichus' comes in. But we also see how Moshe Rabeinu married Tziporah whose 'father' was not Jewish [later converted].
I'm sure there are other relevant examples.
I brought these 2 examples to answer people on both sides of this issue. Those who criticize pple who emphasize yichus- well, they did NOT make it up. It dates way back then! It is their decision to chose to make Yichus a priority in their shiduch! To those who feel that 'yichus' is the ultimate- well plenty of great leaders in the torah married pple with ZERO yichus and plenty great pple had ZERO yichus and made yichus for themselves [Rabbi Akiva]
Yichus in reference to non shidduch matters: Any individual, teacher, rebbe etc.. who treats pple with 'yichus' better is plain old fashioned. These days is all about the pple with $$$ & POWER!!! :)
my 2 cents
sara
 

Hey Josh, How do you add people to your blog? Dying to know...
Yichus, I think primarily has to do with going off the derech. They acctually do not care if you speak lashon horah or bend the rules a bit. My "rebelious" friends with yichus all got great shidduchim. The deal was, no matter how much they party, they still are frum. No broken chain there Its really not about personal growth/ spiritually evolving that matters. Only BTs have to prove something...

When I was 8 or 9, I distrinctly remember a shabbos group where all of the girls were discussing their yichus. There was a little girl, Tovah, who, after listening to everyone else recite their prestigious family trees, chimed in with, "YEAH? well my great great great grandfather was a big RASHA! My MOm told me!!" All of the little girls were just silent...you could hear a pin drop...but the conversation was effectively over.
 

A girl I was set up with once asked if I cared about yichus and I was taken aback. My mother was BT and so yichus never mattered to me. The only thing I find to be somewhat important is if the parents are know as good people to evaluate if it was passed on to the girl.

Then again, my father's grandfather's grandfather was the shamash for the Sefat Emet (the rebbe from Ger) so it's never really been an issue on my side.
 

Josh,

Like Mimi said, Yichus is just an imperfect source of information, a proxy for better means of information gathering. We wouldn't need to use yichus if we simply allowed people to date, because dating is the most effective means of acquring information about a potential spouse. Interestingly the groups who care about yichus and tablecloths are the same societies that frown on extensive dating. The people have to get information from somewhere.
 

While there is value is being related to a gadol, I think that when it goes back so many generations you can't even count anymore, it's no longer as strong of an indicator of the type of person they are. If you could sincerely tell me that a person carried the legacy of that specific gadol...I would be willing to accept their yichus but more often then not, you don't see this strong line of Rabbis following (especially from the ones who boast the yichus!).

If you would take the great Rav Shach as an example, I'm sure many would love to boast their relation to him as he is seen as one of our gedoli hador -- but if someone would pay closer attention to his family, you would notice that his only son did not turn out to be anything like him. His son a religous Jew but a doctor, not a great Torah scholar is a far cry from Rav Shach. So do we say, we'll he has yichus! So he MUST be like Rav Shach...no! He's his own person.

I think it is important to note someone's family and see who they are as people, but it should deffinitely not be the sole indicator. People are people, not carbon copies of their parents.

But to answer Josh's question, many people use yichus as a way of excluding others...as a way of getting 'one up' on the next guy. It's sick but it's like everything else in shidduchim. Just take it with a grain of salt.

As a great Rabbi once told me -- 'shidduchim is a game of love and war. And this, is war' Fight for what's important to you, but don't get caught up on silly details.
 

this is an interesting subject. I never thought much about yichus. When a friend would tell me her great-great-great- something was Rashi, I'd smile, say "cool" and never look at her differently. But, and I think this is important, I think she did look at herself differently because of it. Maybe when she learned a Rashi, she paid more attention, felt a kinship, enjoys Torah more, etc. So yichus, on a personal level, is great, cause it connects us to great people, connects us, way back, to Har Sinai. Mesorah. But on the flip side, a "lack" of (known) yichus should never be perceived as a negative that is patently ridiculous.

Just think of all the descendants of history's 40 hidden tzaddikim! There must be millions of people with amazingly illustrious ancestry walking around! I could have one of them as a grandfather, a great-grandfather...I could be one of them, myself.

You never know...:)
 

Yichus does have some import... there is a Halacha that one should try to marry the daughter of a Talmid Chochom.
 

On this subject I've heard an interesting vort.
Assume Yichis is a bunch of zeros.
You have 3 prominent names in your lineage for e.g. then give yourself three zeros 000.
You however can't be a forth zero you need to be a 1(i.e. work hard on your learning ,middos etc…).
000=0 a 1 in front of them =1000.

Basically the idea is that Yichus is secondary to who you turn out to be, but if you have worked and succeeded then the yichus become a value.
 

Interesting post! We want yichus when we come from it. When we don't have it we really want it. How important is it really? I wish I knew.
 

I feel somewhat obligated to post on your blog, since you posted on mine...
Anyway, in theory Yichus is relevant. It could let people know what minchagim your family keeps, but as we all know we do not do everything the same way our parents do so how could we even pretend to keep the same traditions as our "illustrious" grandparents. It also made sense when Bnei Yisroel couldn't marry between Shvatim, but now that we can we celebrate Tu B'Av - letting us know that it is better to marry between tribes.
Anyone that has a stick up their butt about Yichus should be reminded of Rabbi Akiva - a man who used to make fun of Talmidei Chachamim.
But I'm sure that if all Jews had kept family trees we would all find out that not only are we all related to eachother (except Gerim) but we all have some relative to shepp nachas from.
In terms of shidduchim, I know Yichus carries a lot of weight in quite a few circles. Personally, I don't want to marry someone's grandfather I want to know about that unique person. And if someone turns you down because you claim to not have Yichus you have to remember that it's a pretty superficial thing at this point anyway.
 

1- Yichus has been likened to zero's. Without a number before them, they are nothing.
 

i'm a lurker coming out of hiding...just wanted to say hi!
in response to this post, i think that who you are should matter way more than where you come from...especially since so many people come from somewhere great and end up somewhere else...
 

E - Yay! We agree! Our religion places such a premium on tradition that it seems such a natural thing to value in personal lineage. But we can't lose sight of what our religion calls on us to accomplish in the future.

T - Don't worry - I thought of it in Shidduch terms too - we're at that age. You're right - I wouldn't be interested in somebody who's concerned with my lack of Yichus. I think there is an human instinct to idolize a royal class. Turning others into instant celebrities, without having to judge based on actual values, makes the process much cleaner. We tend to want to emulate people who exemplify the values we respect. Those that place an empty emphasis on Yichus are probably those that value superficial decorations over actual personal acheivements.

Anon (Sara) - I wonder if Yichus in the Torah meant the same thing as it does now. Avoiding marrying into a family of idol worshippers isn't the same as hand picking appropriate matches. Who says you are on the level of Avrohom Avinu to be able to demand such a prospect? It does tend to come down to money and power - people use Yichus as a way of getting what they don't have, or proving themselves as better.

Kaen - Contact me off the blog for the technical info. You were right on with your description of Yichus today. A son of a Rosh Yeshiva is a great catch, no matter how many "bumps" he's gone through. But a girl from a diverse background? She could be Sara Imeinu and always be second guessed. I hope you realize how important your story is. In my mind, somebody with Yichus to a big Rasha shows how much potential they have. Since potential can be used for good or bad, it would stand to reason that this descendent was full of potential, and if she exhibited good qualities, then she would seem like quite the catch!

DYS - It seems that you can win on both sides of the issue. You have it if it matters, and don't on the other side. I wonder if being a mixed breed hurts. It does seem like a BT/FFB thing; I suppose people like to be on the "inside", which requires putting others on the "outside." I guess it's a way for people with little acheivement of their own to maintain feelings of superiority over others. Why compete with others with your own contributions when you can discount them categorically for having nobody else's laurels to rest on?

Neph - I know you've written on the topic extensively. People definitely try to take shortcuts to eliminate extra dating, obviously throwing out some good with the bad in the process. But why do the parents get involved in the weeding process? Can't the person themselves ask those predate questions? At least it would help them think about what is important to them. I would speculate that Yichus is more important to parents than children. Parents don't have to care about somebody who doesn't help around the house. The only factor they care about is whether they have prominent Machatonim.

IMM - I agree with your open view of the reality of Yichus. But I disagree with the great Rabbi you quote. Shidduchim is love, not war. How sad that we should remove love from marriage. And how sad that we should have to fight because others have made it so competitive in the wrong ways. So other people have turned Shidduchim into a competition for superficial things? You think I'm going to fight them? Nope - I'm going to hold out for love.

Dw - While the sources might point to the potential, I think it is more than just refocusing the need on the correct prioties. People look at Yichus as an acheivement, but it is all about what you do with it. It's like the "Bible Codes" - I can "predict" anything using that same logic. But only hindsight will really tell us who will acheive what.

O - There are definitely many different ways to appreciate Yichus, and I don't think it should be overlooked. I think a parent telling her child about the storied grandeur of her forebearers is a wonderful form of Chinuch. I think telling her child whom to marry based on this same trait is a terrible strategy. As you said, it can be an inspiration, but it shouldn't be seen as a limitation. After all, whom did Rashi look at as his Yichus? As far as the hidden Tzaddikim, isn't it 36? And aren't there ones in every generation?

N - There is also an Halacha that one should try to marry a beautiful woman. I don't argue with the frailities of the human condition that both these ideas address. But we do have to keep it in perspective, and understand their intent. I think if a person is a Yarei Shomayim they will place a value on somebody who grew up in a Talmid Chacham's home. But I don't think we all need to pretend to be Talmidei Chachamim, because we fear we won't have the Yichus to marry off our children. Each one of us has to be honest with ourselves and where we stand spiritually. Our decisions should flow accordingly.

P - That speaks to the idea that Yichus really represents potential, which may or may not be realized. But it's funny, because I don't think it's simply a zero or a multiple of ten. I think people forget that somebody who doesn't use their strong potential for good is really in the negative realm.

SW/FM - I suppose I'm just a bitter wannabe. But what better than a blog rant to help flush out the truth? I don't think any of us know what is better. But all the exposure out here definitely brings us closer to it.

In - No obligations. I am looking forward to you writing more on your blog! Judaism has definitely evolved over the years, and obviously we are less tribal than we were back in the desert. Perhaps Yichus is a vestige of that time. Regardless, you are right that we all have yichus to be proud of (and to be ashamed of - but I'm not even going there). I suppose it's the ones who are less superficial who just stopped keeping track.

ML - I can see how the NY shidduch scene would chase you back to Mass. Scary. But it does work in many ways. Unfortunately, though, one of the drawbacks is we don't get to just meet people and get attracted because it "clicks." We're so scientific in exploring specifics that we don't get to appreciate a relationship for its own sake. In my mind, this isn't because the process is superficial, as much as it is limited, to Nephtuli's point. If I have to decide in 3 dates, it is really only the basic details that will play a role in my decision. Also, we tend to view Shidduchim as alliances - practical questions of what will the "other" bring into the relationship, instead of just looking for love.

Msh - True, it is a great credit to a Talmid Chacham to have illustrious ancestry. But a regular person with a great grandfather is still a regular person.

MP - They're coming out of the woodwork! Feel free to lurk. However you feel comfortable. Hopefully, somebody not only will my kids be able to say that they are the children of a great blogger, but they will have active blogs of their own!
 

Would you want your children to blog?

I don't know if I'd be up for it.
 

I think you misunderstood the quote. It's not fighting for something over love. The point is, that you have to fight for the important things that matter to you so that you may achieve love. Unfortunately, I find that if you play mr./mrs. nice guy people will often set you up with people completely not shayach. For example, people will often base a 'great shidduch' soley on yichus...that's crazy! It's fight to find the one that is best for you. Sadly, shidduchim is simply a game and you have to work hard to win (and yes winning is finding your one true bashert-- not the one with tha fancy lexus).
 

S - I don't think I'd mind. Blogging is one of the more innocuous distractions on the internet. It's the other things I'd be worried about. But with enough supervision and limits on time, I'd think the blogosphere would be great exposure to different viewpoints for my kids.

TB - Never underestimate a woman's power to change a man! I always look at Yichus as, will my grandchildren proudly point back to me as their ancestor? It's only my mark that counts. I've never been one for resting on other accomplishments. Of course, I'll also expect my children to make their own fortunes.

DW - Oops, sorry. I'll agree to Zechus Avos. I suppose we all have that...

IMM - We certainly do have to push with all our might if we want to be heard over the "system." But I still don't think it's a fight. I'm not competing for the "great" catches, or trying to get anyone to be interested in me. The right person for me will cut through the same shtuss...
 

Josh,

I agree about the parents. I blogged about that as well, and concluded that the parents' involvement is bad for the shidduch system. You're absolutely right.
 

DG - We should hang. I don't think Odoxy is obsessed with purity though - I don't think people care if a person is really pure. They just want a trophy to show off. Working on succeeding, whether spiritually, financially, or even emotionally, is tough. And none of us want to admit to not being as successful as the next person. So we all grab onto superficial ways to show we are better - like showing how great a Yichus we have or married into. It's all just a form of snobbery. We just need more people like us that will appreciate everyone for what they contribute, even if they are Yichus-less.

Neph - You've already blogged about everything, I suppose. Just get married already. Parents can be great resources, but we have to be suspicious of any decision which is supposed to be for our sake and take our uniqueness into account that doesn't have ourselves in the driver seat.