Thursday, June 01, 2006
There's Other Kinds of "Shomer"
This past weekend I served as a "Shomer", a guardian, for a friend who was getting married. Basically, it involved accompanying him around for 24 hours before the wedding. (It ended up being 24 hours before the pictures, not the Chuppah. Not sure why). I was trying to figure out what the purpose of being a Shomer is. Is it to protect the Chosson? Is it to make sure they don't back out/kill themselves? Is it to make sure they stay Tahor (ritually clean) up until the wedding night? Is it just to serve as an entourage, to give respect to the "king/queen for a day?" Or is it just a Halachically recognized emotional/practical support for a person on a very big day? That's to be determined.
But what it did accomplish is cause me to rethink this whole marriage thing.
I helped review my friend's Chosson classes. That's where they teach the groom all those, um, intricate details of marriage that he hasn't been exposed to before in the frum world. I didn't learn anything new in that respect. But what I did learn is I have no clue what the additional Halachic responsibilities are of getting married. I like to think of myself as pretty frum. It's easy to be Machmir on everything. Showing up to Minyan on time, not so hard. But Taharas HaMispacha? That's hard. Forget about all the emotional challenges. There's a lot of detail there that I just don't know. And you can't just be Machmir.
Of course, the same goes for Shabbos and Kashrus. Those are easy now. But once I have my own home? There are a lot of details that I just don't know. And even if I learn them, they are very challenging to keep.
I'm not saying I'm abandoning ship. I'd love to learn more and keep it all. But I can fully appreciate the challenges that newlyweds face. Suddenly, they can make their own decisions about how religious they want to be. And many want to be more religious. But they are thrown wholly unprepared into a new world of Halacha with details beyond their knowledge, and many are overwhelmed and forced to adapt to standards they wouldn't have subscribed to.
But that is just one of the reasons I have to rethink my readiness for marriage. The bigger problem was a non-Halachic insight my friend shared from his teacher.
Women are crazy.
Probably not a new idea to some, probably an exaggeration to others. But if this is true, then it means that my whole presumption that there is a girl out there that I can just reason with is flawed. Don't get me wrong. I fully expect that every girl will cry for some reason I can't understand. I know there are hormonal swings that have to be dealt with. And I know that our minds work differently. But if at the root of who we are, I can't speak the same language as a woman, I might go insane.
Of course, I may have misunderstood my friend's teacher. But if that is the case, I'm probably not ready to get married myself anyways.
But what it did accomplish is cause me to rethink this whole marriage thing.
I helped review my friend's Chosson classes. That's where they teach the groom all those, um, intricate details of marriage that he hasn't been exposed to before in the frum world. I didn't learn anything new in that respect. But what I did learn is I have no clue what the additional Halachic responsibilities are of getting married. I like to think of myself as pretty frum. It's easy to be Machmir on everything. Showing up to Minyan on time, not so hard. But Taharas HaMispacha? That's hard. Forget about all the emotional challenges. There's a lot of detail there that I just don't know. And you can't just be Machmir.
Of course, the same goes for Shabbos and Kashrus. Those are easy now. But once I have my own home? There are a lot of details that I just don't know. And even if I learn them, they are very challenging to keep.
I'm not saying I'm abandoning ship. I'd love to learn more and keep it all. But I can fully appreciate the challenges that newlyweds face. Suddenly, they can make their own decisions about how religious they want to be. And many want to be more religious. But they are thrown wholly unprepared into a new world of Halacha with details beyond their knowledge, and many are overwhelmed and forced to adapt to standards they wouldn't have subscribed to.
But that is just one of the reasons I have to rethink my readiness for marriage. The bigger problem was a non-Halachic insight my friend shared from his teacher.
Women are crazy.
Probably not a new idea to some, probably an exaggeration to others. But if this is true, then it means that my whole presumption that there is a girl out there that I can just reason with is flawed. Don't get me wrong. I fully expect that every girl will cry for some reason I can't understand. I know there are hormonal swings that have to be dealt with. And I know that our minds work differently. But if at the root of who we are, I can't speak the same language as a woman, I might go insane.
Of course, I may have misunderstood my friend's teacher. But if that is the case, I'm probably not ready to get married myself anyways.
# posted by Josh : Thursday, June 01, 2006
Comments:
<< Home
Men who give other men marriage advice by saying women are crazy is probably harboring bitterness in relation to his own wife and own marriage.
Imagine if at a women's marriage class the Rabbanit said, "All men are dogs and must be managed as such." What would you think is behind those words? Exactly.
Perhaps you should check out a blog called shadchun by a frum guy that writes about dating and marriage issues. He might have more insight than I.
Imagine if at a women's marriage class the Rabbanit said, "All men are dogs and must be managed as such." What would you think is behind those words? Exactly.
Perhaps you should check out a blog called shadchun by a frum guy that writes about dating and marriage issues. He might have more insight than I.
Women and men do speak different languages and have different aproaches to things. Although this sounds like it can be frustrating sometimes (or a lot), that's part of the game. Besides, there's a flipside to it in that some times the otherness of women makes them mysteriously attractive.
T-licious,
If a Rabbanit said that, I would agree with her. She also has her frustrations, etc.
T-licious,
If a Rabbanit said that, I would agree with her. She also has her frustrations, etc.
Josh,
I think the teacher was simply trying to empahsize that men and women speak VERY different languages. In that light, each has to learn how to deal and work with the other. So maybe he's frustrated and maybe he was trying to put some comic relief to the matter. I believe that you'll be able to find common ground with your one true bashert and you won't think she's crazy (or maybe you will, for other reasons...lol)
On a seperate note, if you're not ready for marriage, I think you are now of age to figure out why not, at the very least it should at least be of concern. In addition, i think it is most impressive that you are willing to dmit you're not ready (if in fact you are not)
I think the teacher was simply trying to empahsize that men and women speak VERY different languages. In that light, each has to learn how to deal and work with the other. So maybe he's frustrated and maybe he was trying to put some comic relief to the matter. I believe that you'll be able to find common ground with your one true bashert and you won't think she's crazy (or maybe you will, for other reasons...lol)
On a seperate note, if you're not ready for marriage, I think you are now of age to figure out why not, at the very least it should at least be of concern. In addition, i think it is most impressive that you are willing to dmit you're not ready (if in fact you are not)
okay, okay. at the beginning i was going to get all defensive and say, 'EXCUSE ME!!'- how dare you! but the truth is that most of the girls i know are crazy to some extent, and in some fashion, including myself...countless times have i been told, 'chanie you're crazy!' but truth be told, men are also crazy. and its not a bad thing. who wants to be normal anyway? who wants to fit into a mold? be yourself, be unique. it's good to be crazy, so celebrate it. on thing i just have to say is that the fact that both men and women are crazy does not mean that were crazy in the same way. i can understand other crazy girls. guys are from a completely different planet, with a completely different form of craziness. can we find common ground? with some effort, usually yes. does that make it difficult to communicate? it presents challenges. but these challenges, when seen as such, and as overcomable, can greatly enhance a relationship. you dont have to understand each other, you just have to accept each other. of course, when i get married, my view might change. but i think i have the basics.
You'll never be "ready" to deal with women's very different nature. You have to do on the job training, it's the only way. I never had any serious relationships with girls until I got married, and it worked out. You just have to be a mensch.
As far as 'being ready' for marrige is concerned - i was just speaking to my brother who is getting married next week and of course i said 'so, are you ready to get married?' to which he replied that you can only be ready for something which you hve practiced for - marriage isnt sometihng that you do many times over until you are ready for the real thing. in order to make me understand, he threw this example at me: are YOU ready to go to the moon??? and being that i am not an astronaut, OR an astronaut-in-training, i understand now.
# posted by 
: June 04, 2006 5:44 AM
: June 04, 2006 5:44 AM
mr josh goldman-
i've always been crazy and always will be crazy... crazy for you!
-sharon
i've always been crazy and always will be crazy... crazy for you!
-sharon
# posted by : June 04, 2006 7:39 AM
: June 04, 2006 7:39 AM
Crazy in this case is synonymous for letting go any form of rational thinking and let emotions take over completely.
It's getting hysterical because she put the milchig spoon in the fleishig sink, it's yelling on the phone because only 16 members of the family remembered to call to wish a happy birthday.
Well you get the idea.
It's not as bad as it sounds once you get used to it, once you don't jump up every time she panics and when you know when to just play a game on your computer a be inconspicuous.
As for Halacha, in my opinion there's nothing as nice as to learn the Halachos about Ksahrus, Shabbes etc.. Together as a couple.
It's getting hysterical because she put the milchig spoon in the fleishig sink, it's yelling on the phone because only 16 members of the family remembered to call to wish a happy birthday.
Well you get the idea.
It's not as bad as it sounds once you get used to it, once you don't jump up every time she panics and when you know when to just play a game on your computer a be inconspicuous.
As for Halacha, in my opinion there's nothing as nice as to learn the Halachos about Ksahrus, Shabbes etc.. Together as a couple.
There's also something to be said for stumbling along and growing together. Just like the first Shabbos you kept wasn't perfect and maybe you had trouble giving up Blizzards from Dairy Queen even though you were totally keeping kosher in every other aspect, T.H. is something you muddle through - but this time you have a partner. You can learn the halacha, but don't under estimate the huge emotional component - especially for those of us raised in a secular society. I totaly believe that T.H. is a perfect way to keep marriage fresh and new, but, damn, is it hard.
As far as being a shomer is concerned, maybe it's different for guys, but my brain was on another plane of the universe for 24 hours before my wedding. My shomeret helped me manage the details (and paid for things when I forgot my purse on our late-night trip to Meijer). It was possibly the most intense 24 hours of my life.
As far as being a shomer is concerned, maybe it's different for guys, but my brain was on another plane of the universe for 24 hours before my wedding. My shomeret helped me manage the details (and paid for things when I forgot my purse on our late-night trip to Meijer). It was possibly the most intense 24 hours of my life.
T - I think you're point is valid that we have to be sensitive to the words we use to describe others. Obviously, we can't write off any part of humanity. I don't think this teacher's point was to dehumanize women, but rather to show that they are beyond any patterns that a man may be used to. The question would be whether men are best served by being told to get used to the fact that they won't ever understand women or by being taught how to bring the two closer together.
D - We're definitely different. I guess the trick is finding that balance between enigma and unknown. I suppose if we're expected to partner with women, we best learn how make the most of it. Of course, I'll want to defer to my wife and make her happy. But I want to be able to make rational decisions throughout my life. So when do I give up, and when do I dig in?
IMM - Even if she's crazy, I can adjust. The problem is that I have my own craziness about my future home doing everything "right," for some good reason or another. I don't know all the right reasons. My wife would be a great source of those reasons. But if she's crazy, and none of her choices seems to make sense, then I'll feel like I'm taking a step backwards. Marriage should be about growth, not about regression. Smart choices are part of growth to me. So will all women ask of me to make crazy decisions?
Ch - I have nothing wrong with your craziness. I love being outside the norm. That's part of my problem. I try and approach everything uniquely, from a fresh perspective. Once you're married, you complete this with two peoples' perspective. I want to keep doing the crazy things that make me unique and satisfied, but I'm afraid I'll have to sacrifice them when I'm forced to unite with some crazy woman. I'll be lucky if I learn to communicate, but I'm pretty much resigned to a reserved seat on the couch.
JB - I agree that you just have to be a mensch. You have to treat your spouse like they are always right. But I have very strong values. I'd hate to feel like I was abandoning them just to be a mensch.
DG - I definitely wouldn't want somebody like me. But I want somebody who at least makes sense. For example, we might be deciding where to buy a house. I might have my reasons, and she might have hers. I don't think I'm more right than anyone else. In fact, I think the added viewpoint would make coming up with better decisions much easier. But if we're trying to buy a house, and she just wants one because "she likes it," I might just go crazy myself!
TB - I have to say I hope you are right. I long for somebody who is different, whom I have to learn, but I don't want to think that they're crazy. I hope there is a better way to explain the differences between men and women. I just do not want to have to give up on my values to mesh in a marriage. Hmm, now that I think of it, maybe the problem is just that my values are crazy...
Anon - I wonder if I'm ready. I think I am. If I found the right person, I think I have a lot to offer in a family. I've never tried it, so I don't know. But if I was really ready, would I sacrifice more to make it happen?
SCWSC - Almost every girl I ever dated I met indirectly because of you. But I suppose I've been dancing around the main attraction...
P - You captured my sentiment exactly. But I'm not just looking to adapt to it- I don't need my kids growing up with such Meshugas. Nor do I think it's a great idea to just ignore my wife when she doesn't make sense. I'd like to always be able to take her seriously, not figure out how to placate her while I work on the serious things.
AS - Growing together is the best. Obviously it smoothes all the emotional challenges, as well as puts you on equal halachic grounds. But hard is hard - there is just a lot to learn. It's easy to just get by when you're single. But suddenly, I have to recognize different color spots, know what happens if I put the wrong spoon in the wrong pot, or need to use a stroller on Shabbos. That's just hard. And with the Shomer, up until the wedding started, he had it all together, while my head was all over the place. Although, once the wedding started, I was able to stay one step ahead!
D - We're definitely different. I guess the trick is finding that balance between enigma and unknown. I suppose if we're expected to partner with women, we best learn how make the most of it. Of course, I'll want to defer to my wife and make her happy. But I want to be able to make rational decisions throughout my life. So when do I give up, and when do I dig in?
IMM - Even if she's crazy, I can adjust. The problem is that I have my own craziness about my future home doing everything "right," for some good reason or another. I don't know all the right reasons. My wife would be a great source of those reasons. But if she's crazy, and none of her choices seems to make sense, then I'll feel like I'm taking a step backwards. Marriage should be about growth, not about regression. Smart choices are part of growth to me. So will all women ask of me to make crazy decisions?
Ch - I have nothing wrong with your craziness. I love being outside the norm. That's part of my problem. I try and approach everything uniquely, from a fresh perspective. Once you're married, you complete this with two peoples' perspective. I want to keep doing the crazy things that make me unique and satisfied, but I'm afraid I'll have to sacrifice them when I'm forced to unite with some crazy woman. I'll be lucky if I learn to communicate, but I'm pretty much resigned to a reserved seat on the couch.
JB - I agree that you just have to be a mensch. You have to treat your spouse like they are always right. But I have very strong values. I'd hate to feel like I was abandoning them just to be a mensch.
DG - I definitely wouldn't want somebody like me. But I want somebody who at least makes sense. For example, we might be deciding where to buy a house. I might have my reasons, and she might have hers. I don't think I'm more right than anyone else. In fact, I think the added viewpoint would make coming up with better decisions much easier. But if we're trying to buy a house, and she just wants one because "she likes it," I might just go crazy myself!
TB - I have to say I hope you are right. I long for somebody who is different, whom I have to learn, but I don't want to think that they're crazy. I hope there is a better way to explain the differences between men and women. I just do not want to have to give up on my values to mesh in a marriage. Hmm, now that I think of it, maybe the problem is just that my values are crazy...
Anon - I wonder if I'm ready. I think I am. If I found the right person, I think I have a lot to offer in a family. I've never tried it, so I don't know. But if I was really ready, would I sacrifice more to make it happen?
SCWSC - Almost every girl I ever dated I met indirectly because of you. But I suppose I've been dancing around the main attraction...
P - You captured my sentiment exactly. But I'm not just looking to adapt to it- I don't need my kids growing up with such Meshugas. Nor do I think it's a great idea to just ignore my wife when she doesn't make sense. I'd like to always be able to take her seriously, not figure out how to placate her while I work on the serious things.
AS - Growing together is the best. Obviously it smoothes all the emotional challenges, as well as puts you on equal halachic grounds. But hard is hard - there is just a lot to learn. It's easy to just get by when you're single. But suddenly, I have to recognize different color spots, know what happens if I put the wrong spoon in the wrong pot, or need to use a stroller on Shabbos. That's just hard. And with the Shomer, up until the wedding started, he had it all together, while my head was all over the place. Although, once the wedding started, I was able to stay one step ahead!
Women are clearly crazy, but so are men. It just takes time to figure out how women think and act. Much of it is on the job, but it helps if you've had some experience dealing with other girls, so it's not a complete shock ("Wait, you don't want answers? You just want me to listen?").
come on! you're just being chicken. you're friendly with enough women to know they're (we're) not crazy. you're just overthinking and overworrying (as usual). look at it as an adventure.
I'm going to have to go with mata hari on this one -- you're just freaking yourself out. In addition, you imagine everything to be a certain way IY"H, just be prepared that things may be different. There is that possibility through out life. G-d throws many an interesting curveball. You just have to learn how to swing at it.
Of course, we're crazy.
I completely reserve the right to be irrational, emotional, and totally out of perspective whenever I feel inclined. The catch is, of course, while reserving the right, my obligations to the world around me would limit its usage from almost never to nil. [sigh]
The truth is there is nothing more frustrating than someone trying to be reasonable and rational at a woman, when all she wants to do is scream. Just allow her to express her insanity for two/three minutes and then we can all go back to be rational human beings.
I completely reserve the right to be irrational, emotional, and totally out of perspective whenever I feel inclined. The catch is, of course, while reserving the right, my obligations to the world around me would limit its usage from almost never to nil. [sigh]
The truth is there is nothing more frustrating than someone trying to be reasonable and rational at a woman, when all she wants to do is scream. Just allow her to express her insanity for two/three minutes and then we can all go back to be rational human beings.
# posted by : June 05, 2006 7:26 AM
: June 05, 2006 7:26 AM
masmida - if we're crazy then they're crazy too. to me male behavior is often incomprehensible. they say something - you take it to mean something (because that's what you would mean if you said it) and then when you ask them why they said it and what they were thinking - they say - "i wasn't thinking".
Women aren't irrational all of the time or even most of the time. One of the benefits of frum dating is that it helps us to logically evaluate potential spouses. Part of that is figuring out of you approach life the same way. Your basheret won't be a woman who says "Oooh! I just love those pink curtains. I MUST have this house [end of discussion]."
Neph - Sure you learn some on the job, but if at the end of the day, they're still fully grown and still are fascinated with shiny trinkets, I'll never adjust to that. I'll go crazy first. At least logic dictates what I'm thinking. I'm very predictable.
MH - I'm friendly with enough to know that being friends is enough. But would I want any of your species influencing the next generation of Josh's? That's scary.
IMM - Of course I'm just being a drama queen. But so what? It's not a curveball to know that I'm going to have marry somebody who is crazy. My problem is that the way I see it, two spouses should have the same values. But apparently women's values are insane! How am I supposed to capitulate to such rediculous demands? Just say no to diamonds!
Mas - I have nothing wrong with the expression of emotions. I'm jealous of women for that- I wish I could be half as expressive. But when it comes to making decisions based on emotions, that's where the conflict comes in. Take your five minutes to cry, and even use my shoulder. But then we have to start to make sense...
MH - All that stuff is about communication. I've learned never to let anything bothering you go by. Ask what they meant. Those differences go both ways, but they're easily clarified. Assume nothing.
Ahuva - I hope you're right. I suppose that's the purpose of this blog - if you like pink curtains, please don't apply ;)
Sh - Is it selfish to want things decided rationally? I don't want it to be my decision. That's the problem. I want my wife to give her input and make decisions. But in order to respect those decisions, we need to be using the same rules to get there. If I don't understand why she wants to do what she wants, I'll definitely go crazy. And so I am effectively waiting for non-crazy to come my way...
OOT - The TH comment wasn't meant that I'm afraid of marriage as a result, and certainly not putting it off. I just meant that all our committments to a certain level of Yiddishkeit aren't relevant when the real complex Halachos kick in after marriage. As frum as we are now, the realism kicks in at the Chuppah, and the tough decisions start.
MH - I'm friendly with enough to know that being friends is enough. But would I want any of your species influencing the next generation of Josh's? That's scary.
IMM - Of course I'm just being a drama queen. But so what? It's not a curveball to know that I'm going to have marry somebody who is crazy. My problem is that the way I see it, two spouses should have the same values. But apparently women's values are insane! How am I supposed to capitulate to such rediculous demands? Just say no to diamonds!
Mas - I have nothing wrong with the expression of emotions. I'm jealous of women for that- I wish I could be half as expressive. But when it comes to making decisions based on emotions, that's where the conflict comes in. Take your five minutes to cry, and even use my shoulder. But then we have to start to make sense...
MH - All that stuff is about communication. I've learned never to let anything bothering you go by. Ask what they meant. Those differences go both ways, but they're easily clarified. Assume nothing.
Ahuva - I hope you're right. I suppose that's the purpose of this blog - if you like pink curtains, please don't apply ;)
Sh - Is it selfish to want things decided rationally? I don't want it to be my decision. That's the problem. I want my wife to give her input and make decisions. But in order to respect those decisions, we need to be using the same rules to get there. If I don't understand why she wants to do what she wants, I'll definitely go crazy. And so I am effectively waiting for non-crazy to come my way...
OOT - The TH comment wasn't meant that I'm afraid of marriage as a result, and certainly not putting it off. I just meant that all our committments to a certain level of Yiddishkeit aren't relevant when the real complex Halachos kick in after marriage. As frum as we are now, the realism kicks in at the Chuppah, and the tough decisions start.
SWFM and FG - One vote for, one against. So the only question is, do I keep dating until I change my view, or does dating make it worse?
Okay, a few random thoughts:
1) I am one of the least "pink curtains" types that I know (female-wise), and even I find myself getting like that sometimes. I'm sorry, but that's just the way we are. And we'll feel guilty about it, and sometimes we know we're being crazy and will give in on it. And sometimes, maybe if YOU would give in on it, that would be the "growth" that you said you so desire. You'd be giving to your wife even when it made no logical sense to you.
2) That's point #2. Marriage isn't about your own personal growth. Marriage is about a joint growth, about giving to each other. Think about it. It's one of the least selfish things you can do (although it seems selfish because it's so pleasureable).
3) I agree with one of the commenters above. I don't know if you're ready to continue dating. If you decide you are, fine. If not, though, it's time to figure out why not and work on yourself to be sure that you're on the path to being ready. You can't just sit there passively expecting to "grow up." You've got to work at it.
4) That's all. #2 is really important, IMHO.
1) I am one of the least "pink curtains" types that I know (female-wise), and even I find myself getting like that sometimes. I'm sorry, but that's just the way we are. And we'll feel guilty about it, and sometimes we know we're being crazy and will give in on it. And sometimes, maybe if YOU would give in on it, that would be the "growth" that you said you so desire. You'd be giving to your wife even when it made no logical sense to you.
2) That's point #2. Marriage isn't about your own personal growth. Marriage is about a joint growth, about giving to each other. Think about it. It's one of the least selfish things you can do (although it seems selfish because it's so pleasureable).
3) I agree with one of the commenters above. I don't know if you're ready to continue dating. If you decide you are, fine. If not, though, it's time to figure out why not and work on yourself to be sure that you're on the path to being ready. You can't just sit there passively expecting to "grow up." You've got to work at it.
4) That's all. #2 is really important, IMHO.
STX - Too bad you're taken. I have a lot to learn, and obviously wherever she is, she'll have to be somebody willing to teach. I don't want you thinking though that I'm selfish, looking for somebody who will take my word as gospel and adapt to it. I value other opinions, and I want to hear them. But they have to be based on the same values that I have. If I think that a certain decision is the proper one for a Torah household, I don't want to have to do the opposite just because my wife has another opinion, even if she can't explain it. I'm not looking to be stubborn, just for somebody I can speak the same language as. I do believe there are those out there. Maybe I need to keep dating just to find out what's out there. I can expect women to be different, but I don't want to have to compromise on the ideals of my Bayis Neeman just because I have to let a women in. If women are truly that irrational, I don't know what I'd do.
Post a Comment
<< Home
