Friday, July 28, 2006
A Man's Man
A funny thing happened the other day at Shul. As they do a couple of times a month, a pair of Meshulachim (Schnorrers; wandering charity collectors) made the rounds at my shul. In theory, I support the Agudah's green card program, but in practice I hesitate to give money to any collectors. Aside from the fact that I think that supporting charitable institutions is a more effective and efficient way to serve the needs of the community, I also get full corporate matching of gifts at work to 501(c)3 groups. But that is neither here nor there.
Back to the story. Two guys collecting at my shul. At some point in davening, I glance over at the women's section (you know, just to check the clock), and I notice one of the Meshulachim approaching each of the half dozen women who came for morning prayers. As if the sight of a man in gray beard and long black coat on the wrong side of the dividing partition between the sexes wasn't out of place enough, one of the more liberal women in shul (but whom I respect as very frum and genuine) was yelling at him to get out of the women's section. Trying to "close a deal," the guy was hesitating, but this women can be quite intimidating when she starts swinging her Siddur. He left, even as the women's blood pressure rose.
I couldn't help but smile at the irony. Chassidic guy irks liberal woman by violating boundary between the sexes. Now, I understand that Halacha is on his side, as far as I know. Men need to be separated from women during prayer, and not vice versa. But in our society, the ultra-Orthodox world has adopted numerous stringencies beyond the law, specifically in the realm of separation of the sexes. Most avoid conversation, and all co-ed environments. In my neighborhood, he could get away with just a scowl or two, but in his own neighborhood, he'd be fried!
While it might be nice cross exposure for some of these Meshulachim to interact with Jews around the world of all types of backgrounds, it made me wonder just how unproductive this charity collection system may be. Aside from the probable better use of each collector's time, what kind of environment does it put them in? If they are raising money to be able to live in their bubble (and I'm not criticizing that choice), then are they really better served by spending weeks at a time on their own roving throughout the free world? If a man from a community that has separate kiddushes suddenly feels comfortable interupting the women's section for individual appeals, what affect is this having on his spirituality according to his own Hashkafa? And if he's willing to break such public taboos, what of the more private taboos that he has the opportunity to break from when he's so far from the watchful eyes of his community?
And why are there no female Meshulachot?
Back to the story. Two guys collecting at my shul. At some point in davening, I glance over at the women's section (you know, just to check the clock), and I notice one of the Meshulachim approaching each of the half dozen women who came for morning prayers. As if the sight of a man in gray beard and long black coat on the wrong side of the dividing partition between the sexes wasn't out of place enough, one of the more liberal women in shul (but whom I respect as very frum and genuine) was yelling at him to get out of the women's section. Trying to "close a deal," the guy was hesitating, but this women can be quite intimidating when she starts swinging her Siddur. He left, even as the women's blood pressure rose.
I couldn't help but smile at the irony. Chassidic guy irks liberal woman by violating boundary between the sexes. Now, I understand that Halacha is on his side, as far as I know. Men need to be separated from women during prayer, and not vice versa. But in our society, the ultra-Orthodox world has adopted numerous stringencies beyond the law, specifically in the realm of separation of the sexes. Most avoid conversation, and all co-ed environments. In my neighborhood, he could get away with just a scowl or two, but in his own neighborhood, he'd be fried!
While it might be nice cross exposure for some of these Meshulachim to interact with Jews around the world of all types of backgrounds, it made me wonder just how unproductive this charity collection system may be. Aside from the probable better use of each collector's time, what kind of environment does it put them in? If they are raising money to be able to live in their bubble (and I'm not criticizing that choice), then are they really better served by spending weeks at a time on their own roving throughout the free world? If a man from a community that has separate kiddushes suddenly feels comfortable interupting the women's section for individual appeals, what affect is this having on his spirituality according to his own Hashkafa? And if he's willing to break such public taboos, what of the more private taboos that he has the opportunity to break from when he's so far from the watchful eyes of his community?
And why are there no female Meshulachot?
# posted by Josh : Friday, July 28, 2006
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Interesting blog...perspective is fresh and not readily available. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This will definitely grant a certain insight to others who in place of getting acquianted with something very much different from their environment, and allow--hopefully bridge some gaps.
I don't think I could answer the question of crossing boundaries as I am not one of them but I'm sure in each of their communities there is discussion as to how far they can go to solicit funds. In addition, I'm sure there are many that cross the line that has been instituted for them. Maybe I'm wrong...
As far as women mishulachos, they do exist. You just don't see them in the men's section. They often go around to people's homes and what not. I had one that came every year to get my old clothes and what not. Maybe they don't come around Chicago...
As far as women mishulachos, they do exist. You just don't see them in the men's section. They often go around to people's homes and what not. I had one that came every year to get my old clothes and what not. Maybe they don't come around Chicago...
They quite obviously do not take "women's davening" very seriously. If they did they would have waited until the end of davening. It's disruptive to have a man or woman walking around asking for money while you are trying to pray. It's disruptive enough when people are talking during davening. I would have yelled at them too.
What this is doing is creating more divisiveness amongst the different sects of Judaism - really it can be interpreted as a chilul haShem.
What this is doing is creating more divisiveness amongst the different sects of Judaism - really it can be interpreted as a chilul haShem.
Good observation, it never happened in my shul since it would be deemed very inappropriate, although they do take money from women at home.(not straight from their hand mind you).
About female Meshulachot, there are plenty but they don't come to shul usually, they go to stores and homes.
About female Meshulachot, there are plenty but they don't come to shul usually, they go to stores and homes.
Was he soliciting the men in the middle of davening as well? If not, I definitely agree with Intransit. My instinctive reaction would have been that the guy was implying that female prayer isn't important.
Wait, women daven? I thought they just watch the men to see how much kavana they have...hmm.
Women mashluchim (or mashluchin I should say) would get more money, especially if attractive, but would have trouble collecting during davening as they couldn't go through the men's section. I know some shuls have set up that they can't stoll through during davening but line up outside afterwards. I guess they must be generating some nice donations, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Think of them as seagulls, if you feed them, more come, don't feed them and they fly away (and won't poop on your shoulder).
Women mashluchim (or mashluchin I should say) would get more money, especially if attractive, but would have trouble collecting during davening as they couldn't go through the men's section. I know some shuls have set up that they can't stoll through during davening but line up outside afterwards. I guess they must be generating some nice donations, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Think of them as seagulls, if you feed them, more come, don't feed them and they fly away (and won't poop on your shoulder).
DYS, the single women check out the guys with black hats / men without tallesim. The married women make sure their husbands are actually davening and not talking. And they all say tehillim so it looks like they're davening. Right? Well, I've seen both happen on Shabbos, but how could that possibly be a good rationale for waking up early during the week?
I don't go to a shul where women daven with the minyan during the week. Maybe they're from my shul (they drove a little bit), and were confused that women were actually at shul.
By they way, I'm a woman and I daven everyday, just not with a minyan.
I don't go to a shul where women daven with the minyan during the week. Maybe they're from my shul (they drove a little bit), and were confused that women were actually at shul.
By they way, I'm a woman and I daven everyday, just not with a minyan.
JIOF - That's the point of blogging!
IMM - It would be interesting to see how much of the Meshulach world is standardized, ie people going to their Rabbanim beforehand for guidance, vs. an informal world that makes its own rules.
IN - Interesting take. I actually view it just the opposite. It pits people of different sects in one room. Suddenly, the Satmar that won't count me for a Minyan is coming to me to help him as a brother. Theoretically, these guys can learn a lot about Yiddishkeit outside of Brooklyn when they travel to Shuls all around the country, each with it's own Hashkafa. So I see an opportunity to break down barriers. But why during davening!?
DG - Your sensitivity is beautiful. But no matter how degrading it must be to go around asking for money, I always wonder if they are collecting because they make more this way than by getting a normal job. As bad as I feel for them, their are institutions that can help them - and I support those generously.
Prag - That's what's so weird - these actions are so out of the norm, that I wonder if all the rules go out the window as soon as these guys leave their hometown. I'm speaking about out of town Meshulachim, which invariably have more freedom to break with the norm. Nobody recognizes these guys, and if they'll cross a Mechitza, who knows what else they'll do with nobody around and wads of cash?
A - Don't worry, the men were harassed plenty more. In my shul, there is no rule against interupting people while they daven, so this guy wasn't belittling women's Tefillah. But I'd love to see him try that in Brooklyn!
DYS - Um, that woman asking for money on the street corner was not a Meshulachat!
IN - Don't worry, DYS is just projecting. I know I just watch the single girls daven!
IMM - It would be interesting to see how much of the Meshulach world is standardized, ie people going to their Rabbanim beforehand for guidance, vs. an informal world that makes its own rules.
IN - Interesting take. I actually view it just the opposite. It pits people of different sects in one room. Suddenly, the Satmar that won't count me for a Minyan is coming to me to help him as a brother. Theoretically, these guys can learn a lot about Yiddishkeit outside of Brooklyn when they travel to Shuls all around the country, each with it's own Hashkafa. So I see an opportunity to break down barriers. But why during davening!?
DG - Your sensitivity is beautiful. But no matter how degrading it must be to go around asking for money, I always wonder if they are collecting because they make more this way than by getting a normal job. As bad as I feel for them, their are institutions that can help them - and I support those generously.
Prag - That's what's so weird - these actions are so out of the norm, that I wonder if all the rules go out the window as soon as these guys leave their hometown. I'm speaking about out of town Meshulachim, which invariably have more freedom to break with the norm. Nobody recognizes these guys, and if they'll cross a Mechitza, who knows what else they'll do with nobody around and wads of cash?
A - Don't worry, the men were harassed plenty more. In my shul, there is no rule against interupting people while they daven, so this guy wasn't belittling women's Tefillah. But I'd love to see him try that in Brooklyn!
DYS - Um, that woman asking for money on the street corner was not a Meshulachat!
IN - Don't worry, DYS is just projecting. I know I just watch the single girls daven!
Men need to be separated from women during prayer, and not vice versa.
Granted I had thought and blogged about how a mechitza has its foundations in sexism - its really not true, and I was wrong. Gemara Sukkah, 51b-52a originally speaks of the need for a mechitza. The Satmar Rebbe (Taharas Yom-Tov Vol 6, pp28-60) and Reb Moshe (quoting the Mishna Torah in Hilchos Beis Habchiro Ch5:9) agree that the reason for the mechitza is so that men and women should not mix. The reasoning clearly says not that one should be separated from the other, but rather they should both be separated from each other.
Now in all practically, it could easily be argued that men Do have a harder time not letting their heart/eyes stray (and I can back it up with fMRI neurobiology resesarch), However I also don't think that in any way, shape, or form means that a man has the right to disrupt women's prayer!
What Does give them the right? They can't wait till after davening? What goal do they achieve by being face to face during tefilah? Can't they ask for donations in the mail? How do you know these strangers won't use the money correctly?
I didn't realize it costs so much to daven in big cities...anyways thanks for a laugh this morning - the swinging siddur in a chassic guy's face sounds like a hilarious scene. I'm hope I'm not the only one who has trouble not breaking out in laughter sometimes at shul. Frankly, I think we should strive to have no interruptions during tefilah.
Granted I had thought and blogged about how a mechitza has its foundations in sexism - its really not true, and I was wrong. Gemara Sukkah, 51b-52a originally speaks of the need for a mechitza. The Satmar Rebbe (Taharas Yom-Tov Vol 6, pp28-60) and Reb Moshe (quoting the Mishna Torah in Hilchos Beis Habchiro Ch5:9) agree that the reason for the mechitza is so that men and women should not mix. The reasoning clearly says not that one should be separated from the other, but rather they should both be separated from each other.
Now in all practically, it could easily be argued that men Do have a harder time not letting their heart/eyes stray (and I can back it up with fMRI neurobiology resesarch), However I also don't think that in any way, shape, or form means that a man has the right to disrupt women's prayer!
What Does give them the right? They can't wait till after davening? What goal do they achieve by being face to face during tefilah? Can't they ask for donations in the mail? How do you know these strangers won't use the money correctly?
I didn't realize it costs so much to daven in big cities...anyways thanks for a laugh this morning - the swinging siddur in a chassic guy's face sounds like a hilarious scene. I'm hope I'm not the only one who has trouble not breaking out in laughter sometimes at shul. Frankly, I think we should strive to have no interruptions during tefilah.
Whenever I see someone begging for money, whether in a shul or at the Kotel or on the NYC subways, I always look at their shoes. I have seen some ppl begging for money with ripped clothes and they're all dirty, but they have very nice shoes. If they can afford those nice shoes, they don't need my money. Granted, maybe someone gave them nice shoes, but then what is that nice person wearing? So always look at their shoes.
I once saw an obviously homeless guy sitting by Yankee stadium (Go yankees!) and he had a sign that said "I'm not gonna lie. I just want the beer".
I think it's much more effective to beg in person than thru mail solicitaions. I find it harder to turn down a person face to face than to throw out a piece of mail. I'm not saying that makes it right. I'm just saying.
I know a few ppl who let their guard down in terms of Halacha when they are not in their own environment. It's very sad. I know a married woman who I thought always covers her hair. But we once went to a wedding and she was too hot, so she took her hat off for the dancing part and kept it off the rest of the wedding. And it was not at all one of those places where no one could see. I didn't say anything, but I was thinking "Can she do that?"
There's a great line from the movie Ocean's Eleven where the casino owner, played by Andy Garcia, says to his girlfriend, played by Julia Roberts, that someone is always watching. Then later he says something nasty about his girlfriend and of course she finds out and throws it back in his face, "Of all ppl, Terry, you should know, somebody's always watching". It's so true.
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I once saw an obviously homeless guy sitting by Yankee stadium (Go yankees!) and he had a sign that said "I'm not gonna lie. I just want the beer".
I think it's much more effective to beg in person than thru mail solicitaions. I find it harder to turn down a person face to face than to throw out a piece of mail. I'm not saying that makes it right. I'm just saying.
I know a few ppl who let their guard down in terms of Halacha when they are not in their own environment. It's very sad. I know a married woman who I thought always covers her hair. But we once went to a wedding and she was too hot, so she took her hat off for the dancing part and kept it off the rest of the wedding. And it was not at all one of those places where no one could see. I didn't say anything, but I was thinking "Can she do that?"
There's a great line from the movie Ocean's Eleven where the casino owner, played by Andy Garcia, says to his girlfriend, played by Julia Roberts, that someone is always watching. Then later he says something nasty about his girlfriend and of course she finds out and throws it back in his face, "Of all ppl, Terry, you should know, somebody's always watching". It's so true.
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