Monday, August 14, 2006
Give and Get?
Giving is good. It certainly is a Jewish value that we would all do well to eschew. It is certainly a social value that is simply a good idea. But is there a limit?
Giving can be altruistic, but altruism has its limits. If it didn't, we'd all be communists. So as great as it can be to give for the sake of giving, at some point, realistically, we're going to stop unless we're getting something in return.
So in order to expand giving in the world, should we insist on making every transaction mutually beneficial? For example, I don't mind lending out my car. But there is an inconvenience in doing so. If I get nothing in return, maybe I'll stop lending it out, not because I'm losing so much, but simply because the laziness overcomes the goodness.
And the same is true of all favors. We all have our tipping point between selfless and selfish. We want to do for others, just as we'd want done for ourselves.
And when there is a loss associated with the favor, things can be more delicate. Most of us don't think twice about going over to somebody for a meal. But those meals are expensive. Do we help out? Do we contribute a dish? Do we get the host a gift? A gift is not just a flashy show of gratitude, but also a way of returning the favor. By equalling the balance, we assure that there is enough incentive to keep the flow of goodness moving.
But it's a delicate issue, and one that is hard to broach, if you prefer a generous reputation to a cheap one.
It's like when you are talking to a Shadchan, and you didn't find a girl attractive. You feel really terrible and superficial saying that the girl wasn't pretty enough, so you tiptoe around the issue. I don't want to seem cheap, but there isn't a tactful way of saying that we need to have respect for the financial burden we put on each other. So be a mensch, and pitch in for what you use.
Just because people in NYC treat all property like dirt doesn't mean you can treat other's casually. At least not unless you want to see the favors slow.
******This post is in no way related to anyone or any incident that actually has happened to me. It relates specifically to theoretical ideas and my friends' stories. Nobody who borrowed my car this weekend or any other time should feel that I am criticizing them. It is just a theoretical question of how far I am willing to extend myself for the sake of others. Hopefully it'll continue indefinitely. Because I certainly don't ever want to stop giving.******
Giving can be altruistic, but altruism has its limits. If it didn't, we'd all be communists. So as great as it can be to give for the sake of giving, at some point, realistically, we're going to stop unless we're getting something in return.
So in order to expand giving in the world, should we insist on making every transaction mutually beneficial? For example, I don't mind lending out my car. But there is an inconvenience in doing so. If I get nothing in return, maybe I'll stop lending it out, not because I'm losing so much, but simply because the laziness overcomes the goodness.
And the same is true of all favors. We all have our tipping point between selfless and selfish. We want to do for others, just as we'd want done for ourselves.
And when there is a loss associated with the favor, things can be more delicate. Most of us don't think twice about going over to somebody for a meal. But those meals are expensive. Do we help out? Do we contribute a dish? Do we get the host a gift? A gift is not just a flashy show of gratitude, but also a way of returning the favor. By equalling the balance, we assure that there is enough incentive to keep the flow of goodness moving.
But it's a delicate issue, and one that is hard to broach, if you prefer a generous reputation to a cheap one.
It's like when you are talking to a Shadchan, and you didn't find a girl attractive. You feel really terrible and superficial saying that the girl wasn't pretty enough, so you tiptoe around the issue. I don't want to seem cheap, but there isn't a tactful way of saying that we need to have respect for the financial burden we put on each other. So be a mensch, and pitch in for what you use.
Just because people in NYC treat all property like dirt doesn't mean you can treat other's casually. At least not unless you want to see the favors slow.
******This post is in no way related to anyone or any incident that actually has happened to me. It relates specifically to theoretical ideas and my friends' stories. Nobody who borrowed my car this weekend or any other time should feel that I am criticizing them. It is just a theoretical question of how far I am willing to extend myself for the sake of others. Hopefully it'll continue indefinitely. Because I certainly don't ever want to stop giving.******
# posted by Josh : Monday, August 14, 2006
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Haha, I see I'm not the only one who has something to say about "Just because people in NYC treat all property like dirt doesn't mean you can treat other's casually," but to tell you the truth, NYC is a perfect example of the broken windows theory (I'm to lazy to find how to put the link injto the comments, but I'm sure it's Google-able) ...
Anyhoo, I read something absolutely OUTRAGEOUS in someone's comments yesterday ... which I'll share:
"... (now public restrooms is a different story - pee all over the wall, floor and back of the toilet as you wish.)"
I know, I know, it has nothing to do with your post, except for the treating property like dirt part ... but as a sidenote, I just had to ask, is this bizarre, for someone to admit to this in an open forum, to someone who actually has to use public restrooms from time to time and ends up having to wipe some stranger's biomatter off the seat?
Okay ... I'll be going now ... just a non-sequitor/pet-peeve to think about.
Hope you're well ...
Anyhoo, I read something absolutely OUTRAGEOUS in someone's comments yesterday ... which I'll share:
"... (now public restrooms is a different story - pee all over the wall, floor and back of the toilet as you wish.)"
I know, I know, it has nothing to do with your post, except for the treating property like dirt part ... but as a sidenote, I just had to ask, is this bizarre, for someone to admit to this in an open forum, to someone who actually has to use public restrooms from time to time and ends up having to wipe some stranger's biomatter off the seat?
Okay ... I'll be going now ... just a non-sequitor/pet-peeve to think about.
Hope you're well ...
You know Josh - you don't even live in NYC. You just visit. Visit and apparently watch movies about New York made in the 70s and 80s. Jersey DOES NOT COUNT.
This is a big problem with a lot of people from outside the area. SO many people come here expecting to see/live in: Taxi Driver, a Woody Allen movie, a Charles Bronson movie, Seinfeld, Freinds, Sex in the City, etc. Then they come here and find a city of real complexity with 8 million real people who are equally complex. These TVshows and movies might represent a very slim slice of reality at best but never tell the whole story.
Large cities by definition have lots of people. People are messy. I don't know of any city in the world with more than 5 million people in it that is totally neat and clean and spotless.
As for pitching in at dinners, I and most of the people I know have ALWAYS done potluck dinners. We all understand that feeding 6 or 10 people is VERY expensive. How one can expect one person to shoulder such a burden alone, I don't know. It has always been polite to ask, "What can I bring" when someone invites you to a meal. Most people I know are embarassed to show up at someone's house empty handed.
This is a big problem with a lot of people from outside the area. SO many people come here expecting to see/live in: Taxi Driver, a Woody Allen movie, a Charles Bronson movie, Seinfeld, Freinds, Sex in the City, etc. Then they come here and find a city of real complexity with 8 million real people who are equally complex. These TVshows and movies might represent a very slim slice of reality at best but never tell the whole story.
Large cities by definition have lots of people. People are messy. I don't know of any city in the world with more than 5 million people in it that is totally neat and clean and spotless.
As for pitching in at dinners, I and most of the people I know have ALWAYS done potluck dinners. We all understand that feeding 6 or 10 people is VERY expensive. How one can expect one person to shoulder such a burden alone, I don't know. It has always been polite to ask, "What can I bring" when someone invites you to a meal. Most people I know are embarassed to show up at someone's house empty handed.
Wow, crazy how everyone latches onto the bit about NYC & dirt and completely misses out on the rest of what Josh has to say ...
I'm a lifelong Brooklyn, NY'er and completely unbothered by that comment ... why is that?
I agree though, about giving and getting ... sometimes you have to know your limits, how much you can give before you start depleting your own personal resources.
Whatever ...
I'm a lifelong Brooklyn, NY'er and completely unbothered by that comment ... why is that?
I agree though, about giving and getting ... sometimes you have to know your limits, how much you can give before you start depleting your own personal resources.
Whatever ...
Perhaps the Midwest is just cleaner. Granted, I never did hang out on the mean streets of downtown Detroit (which I'm sure is dirtier than most of Manhattan), but in the Midwest we keep our trash in "alleys" - something that doesn't exist in the Manahattan I saw. Believe me, as a Midwesterner who spent an entire month in NYC in the middle of summer, the stinking trash bags piled on the street were a little disturbing.
So, all of you who say NYC isn't dirty, get over yourselves. Oh, and it's not the center of the universe, either.
So, all of you who say NYC isn't dirty, get over yourselves. Oh, and it's not the center of the universe, either.
I recently hosted a couple of Shabbos meals, and though I very much enjoy it, it can be a bit of a scramble to get everything together if you're working full time. It's certainly appreciated when people bring something along (especially if they tell you ahead of time so you can cut things off of your list).
"but in the Midwest we keep our trash in "alleys" - something that doesn't exist in the Manahattan I saw. Believe me, as a Midwesterner who spent an entire month in NYC in the middle of summer, the stinking trash bags piled on the street were a little disturbing." - anysara
Forst of all I never said New York was not dirty, just that it wasn't much dirtier than cities OF THE SAME SIZE. People create waste. More people, more cr*p. A city of 1 million people is going to be clearner than a city of 8 million people. Any grime you see in New York is simple a by-product of the population and its size. Mexico City has some 20 million people. I bet it's dirtier than New York.
If you want New York to be clearner, you will have to tell half the population to leave. Simple as that. If you want to live in a city with spotless streets, more to a smaller city of maybe 1 million people or less.
As for the garbage piled in the streets - true, there are no alleys in Manhattan. The garbage is usually from the restaurants.
If you want Manhattan to be cleaner, then stop going to restaurants. Then they will go out of business and and there will be less stinky garbage in the street.
It's like saying to a family with newborn triplets, "Gee, your house is so noisy and smells constantly of dirty diapers." The only solution is for you to leave or for the family to get rid of the triplets. What do YOU think this family will do?
As for meals, I have already said my oiece - that potluck is teh way to go and I don't even really understand peopel who feel they need to shoulder the expense and the stress of feeding everyone yourself. If peopel shared teh burdens of hospitality more often, there would be more hospitality.
Forst of all I never said New York was not dirty, just that it wasn't much dirtier than cities OF THE SAME SIZE. People create waste. More people, more cr*p. A city of 1 million people is going to be clearner than a city of 8 million people. Any grime you see in New York is simple a by-product of the population and its size. Mexico City has some 20 million people. I bet it's dirtier than New York.
If you want New York to be clearner, you will have to tell half the population to leave. Simple as that. If you want to live in a city with spotless streets, more to a smaller city of maybe 1 million people or less.
As for the garbage piled in the streets - true, there are no alleys in Manhattan. The garbage is usually from the restaurants.
If you want Manhattan to be cleaner, then stop going to restaurants. Then they will go out of business and and there will be less stinky garbage in the street.
It's like saying to a family with newborn triplets, "Gee, your house is so noisy and smells constantly of dirty diapers." The only solution is for you to leave or for the family to get rid of the triplets. What do YOU think this family will do?
As for meals, I have already said my oiece - that potluck is teh way to go and I don't even really understand peopel who feel they need to shoulder the expense and the stress of feeding everyone yourself. If peopel shared teh burdens of hospitality more often, there would be more hospitality.
Josh, bet ya didn't think there would be a debate over the cleanliness of New York when you wrote this post, did ya?
Did you know that in London, there are no "rubbish bins" on the streets at all? (b/c they're afraid someone might plant a bomb in a garbage can...how sad). And London is one of the cleanest cities I have ever seen?
NYC so IS the center of the Universe! Ask anyone who lives here. We'll tell you.
I totally agree about sharing the responsibility of a meal. That's kinda the standarad where I live. You don't accept a shabbat meal invite without offering to bring something like a side dish or something. I have a friend who makes both meals every week and doesn't let anyone bring anything. So she started to become a shmata for some people. And she wondered why she never has money. So I yelled at her to stop. I have another friend who not only would help make some food, but he would also come back after Shabbat and wash all my dishes. That was awesome. Everyone should have a friend like Zion.
NYC so IS the center of the Universe! Ask anyone who lives here. We'll tell you.
I totally agree about sharing the responsibility of a meal. That's kinda the standarad where I live. You don't accept a shabbat meal invite without offering to bring something like a side dish or something. I have a friend who makes both meals every week and doesn't let anyone bring anything. So she started to become a shmata for some people. And she wondered why she never has money. So I yelled at her to stop. I have another friend who not only would help make some food, but he would also come back after Shabbat and wash all my dishes. That was awesome. Everyone should have a friend like Zion.
i'd think that attending a dinner and giving the host/hostess a gift in return for their hospitality is merely a microcosm of much of what judaism represents. we thank hashem for our food, for giving us life, for everything. we are supposed to say at least 100 blessings a day. showing our gratitude to those who help us, no matter how much nor how little, is in its very essence, something that we, as jews, should be well accustomed to doing.
by the way, thanks for putting up that post. :D
by the way, thanks for putting up that post. :D
"Giving is good. It certainly is a Jewish value that we would all do well to eschew."
Not to pick at an otherwise good post, but doesn't "eschew" mean to avoid? It sounds like you're saying that we would all do well to avoid giving.
Not to pick at an otherwise good post, but doesn't "eschew" mean to avoid? It sounds like you're saying that we would all do well to avoid giving.
# posted by 
: August 21, 2006 6:23 PM
: August 21, 2006 6:23 PM
Pitch in for what you use? Josh, that's a classic line for the ages.
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# posted by : September 07, 2006 8:16 AM
: September 07, 2006 8:16 AM<< Home
