Thursday, September 14, 2006
What is Frum?
People have asked me how I ended up in West Orange. What is a a bearded guy doing in such a modern community...Shouldn't I be in a frummer environment...
Does frum mean homogeneous?
Does frum mean hours of people learning...number of people in davening...signs in Yiddish...black and white on the streets...
Or does frum mean that I am building the best relationship with Gd for me at this time?
Sure, we have a concept of not living in a wicked society, but do we fear that our neighbors that wear t-shirts and have secular newspapers delivered are intrinsically evil? We may think that it isn't the best path for our growth, but isn't their place in the world up to them? Are we only frum if we are surrounded by like minded ideologies? It may be for some, and those that it appeals to should choose it. (Like the Amish - right, BlogBlond?) But do I have to commute from Monsey or Brooklyn to be frum?
Honestly, I'm not a major fan of West Orange...only yesterday (after 5 weeks) did somebody actually come over and introduce themself. But at least here I don't have to pretend to be somebody I'm not.
Does frum mean homogeneous?
Does frum mean hours of people learning...number of people in davening...signs in Yiddish...black and white on the streets...
Or does frum mean that I am building the best relationship with Gd for me at this time?
Sure, we have a concept of not living in a wicked society, but do we fear that our neighbors that wear t-shirts and have secular newspapers delivered are intrinsically evil? We may think that it isn't the best path for our growth, but isn't their place in the world up to them? Are we only frum if we are surrounded by like minded ideologies? It may be for some, and those that it appeals to should choose it. (Like the Amish - right, BlogBlond?) But do I have to commute from Monsey or Brooklyn to be frum?
Honestly, I'm not a major fan of West Orange...only yesterday (after 5 weeks) did somebody actually come over and introduce themself. But at least here I don't have to pretend to be somebody I'm not.
# posted by Josh : Thursday, September 14, 2006
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"Sure, we have a concept of not living in a wicked society, but do we fear that our neighbors that wear t-shirts and have secular newspapers delivered are intrinsically evil? We may think that it isn't the best path for our growth, but isn't their place in the world up to them? Are we only frum if we are surrounded by like minded ideologies? It may be for some, and those that it appeals to should choose it."
it's interesting how our perspectives differ here. in my experience, being in places where everyone around me is secular has always pushed me closer to my judaism, and while i currently cannot wait until i'm living in a 100% jewish (and hopefully frum) community, i know that if i never moved from a frum community to a non-frum environment, i wouldn't be making the journey back to odoxy.
being in a less religious environment, while it certainly presents (too many) challenges, can also have some positive effects, especially when it helps us to evaluate and re-evaluate who we are as individuals in front of Hashem, and not necessarily as members of a particular dominant group. maybe during elul, this is a really good time to be able to assess where we all are, on many levels.
it's interesting how our perspectives differ here. in my experience, being in places where everyone around me is secular has always pushed me closer to my judaism, and while i currently cannot wait until i'm living in a 100% jewish (and hopefully frum) community, i know that if i never moved from a frum community to a non-frum environment, i wouldn't be making the journey back to odoxy.
being in a less religious environment, while it certainly presents (too many) challenges, can also have some positive effects, especially when it helps us to evaluate and re-evaluate who we are as individuals in front of Hashem, and not necessarily as members of a particular dominant group. maybe during elul, this is a really good time to be able to assess where we all are, on many levels.
Frum, most importantly, is concretely saying you follow halacha as codified in Aruch HaShulchan (and when you slip up, you know it and try to correct it). Secondarily, it means you adhere/respect tzniut, chesed, etc. Reading the NYT, living near souls which are not frum, etc has no effect on your frumness. Bec, well put - when Yaakov forgets who he is, Esau reminds him.
I've mentioned your openess and liberal acceptance of everybody before, it's one of the reasons we're friends. While you may look so much "more frum" and I might wear light colored pin striped suits, but it doesn't make me any "less frum."
If only more people could look past what people are wearing or where they are living, you and I might not be single.
If only more people could look past what people are wearing or where they are living, you and I might not be single.
exactly right, dudie- and since both of you are so touchy-feely liberal, maybe the two of you could just marry each other...but we get to come for shabbos to taste your cooking!
Frum means having a personal relationship with Hashem while living a life according to Torah and halacha - in your own way.
Maybe you are currently living in a homogeneous environment and you are the odd one out. Remember 'different' can be interpreted as a threat to close-minded people.
Maybe you are currently living in a homogeneous environment and you are the odd one out. Remember 'different' can be interpreted as a threat to close-minded people.
Bec - I think I agree with you here. I would love the Thrills! But so many people seem to assume that you need to be in the "right" community. But I don't think there is a "right" community for everybody.
Yakki - I agree. Those are the basics. Different things distract different things for different people from sticking with Halacha. They aren't forbidden - only the actual breaking of Halacha is (unless there is a universally accepted ruling that we don't do something as a precaution). So how much do we trust ourselves to set our own safe limits, and how much do we need to rely on communal norms?
Dud- Are you saying somebody has to be open minded to like you? jk.
BB - Even if we were married, I'd still go to your house for Shabbos. I miss the BlogB family!
In - I can't say much more than you're absolutely right. I've always been the odd one out, but I suppose I'm just feeling it more now. And plus I'm in NY. It seems that a lot of people like the status quo, and the thought of it not being the only status worries them. It's not easy bucking a trend. I guess that's why it can be easier coming from nothing.
Yakki - I agree. Those are the basics. Different things distract different things for different people from sticking with Halacha. They aren't forbidden - only the actual breaking of Halacha is (unless there is a universally accepted ruling that we don't do something as a precaution). So how much do we trust ourselves to set our own safe limits, and how much do we need to rely on communal norms?
Dud- Are you saying somebody has to be open minded to like you? jk.
BB - Even if we were married, I'd still go to your house for Shabbos. I miss the BlogB family!
In - I can't say much more than you're absolutely right. I've always been the odd one out, but I suppose I'm just feeling it more now. And plus I'm in NY. It seems that a lot of people like the status quo, and the thought of it not being the only status worries them. It's not easy bucking a trend. I guess that's why it can be easier coming from nothing.
Great q Josh. I think that certain things outside of halacha help to identify/define a Jew, but at the same time we shouldn't put so much stock in them that we create dangerous consequences. Let me explain:
There are those that would shun a bocher in jeans, seemingly ungrateful party guests, etc (ie they would argue there are tzniut or chesed issues with them...these things that the shunners, in their community or Judaic ideals, are without a doubt WRONG for a Jew to do). I strongly disagree with the shunners! IMHO the SHUNNERS are the ones that need to check their middot: As stated in Vayikra 19:15 and Sanhedryn 34b, we must give these people the benefit of the doubt and judge them favorably.
It is too often that I see people (yes sometimes me as well..) quick to become prejudiced. Please see: black hat syndrome, the s/he doesn't look like s/he's from our neighborhood party, etc.
The bottom line being that these things are subjective to your community, to yourself and your own path that helps you get closer to Hashem, to your mind when viewing others, etc
There are those that would shun a bocher in jeans, seemingly ungrateful party guests, etc (ie they would argue there are tzniut or chesed issues with them...these things that the shunners, in their community or Judaic ideals, are without a doubt WRONG for a Jew to do). I strongly disagree with the shunners! IMHO the SHUNNERS are the ones that need to check their middot: As stated in Vayikra 19:15 and Sanhedryn 34b, we must give these people the benefit of the doubt and judge them favorably.
It is too often that I see people (yes sometimes me as well..) quick to become prejudiced. Please see: black hat syndrome, the s/he doesn't look like s/he's from our neighborhood party, etc.
The bottom line being that these things are subjective to your community, to yourself and your own path that helps you get closer to Hashem, to your mind when viewing others, etc
Josh, I think your question is a little disingenous. The issues of making sure that you have good neighbors, good friends (and by this I mean people who will have a positive influence over you) have long been discussed in jewish mussar and tradition (pirkei avos, etc.) Does a community have to be homogeneous? Not necessarily. Does this community work for you? Fine. But it can't come as a huge surprise to think that being surrounded by people with a similar mindset and attitude to observance and growth might keep most people (if not you) in line and protect against temptation. If it's not necessary for you, then that's an individual choice...but it's not an outlandish idea.
Welcome to my neck of the woods, well, State at least. You will always be Midwest-Chicago Josh to me, but happy that you are here now.
Personally, I think Pasaic would be a better fit but youll see..
Personally, I think Pasaic would be a better fit but youll see..
Yak - Whether behavior earns it or not, we shouldn't be judgemental. That holds true whether it is a guy wearing jeans or a guy gathering wood on Shabbos. None of us are in a position to tell him what to do, unless we know he is interested in learning. We are much better off looking at how we could improve ourselves in that same category.
MH - Are you saying I'm a bad influence on the community? That is another possibility that I failed to consider. Maybe the saw the evil in my eyes...Seriously, though, I think people can create great homogenous communities. But I think while they can set the tone, they shouldn't take upon themselves the exclusion of those who don't quite fit the mold.
SG - Thanks so much for the neighborly welcome! I'm not sure where I'll fit in best, so I'm taking my time settling. Hopefully, I'll try it all out. Passaic, from my quick trip there (midweek- yes, a date), seemed like an ok community, but I didn't really fall in love with it. Yes, it had more people my age, but it just seemed so sleepy...But who knows. Maybe South Jersey?
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MH - Are you saying I'm a bad influence on the community? That is another possibility that I failed to consider. Maybe the saw the evil in my eyes...Seriously, though, I think people can create great homogenous communities. But I think while they can set the tone, they shouldn't take upon themselves the exclusion of those who don't quite fit the mold.
SG - Thanks so much for the neighborly welcome! I'm not sure where I'll fit in best, so I'm taking my time settling. Hopefully, I'll try it all out. Passaic, from my quick trip there (midweek- yes, a date), seemed like an ok community, but I didn't really fall in love with it. Yes, it had more people my age, but it just seemed so sleepy...But who knows. Maybe South Jersey?
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