Monday, December 11, 2006

I Didn't Do Anything...

Despite my lack of inspiration to blog lately, there is in fact still activity in my brain. In fact, a lot of it. One of the recurring themes is girls. Go figure.

I hope you've settled down from that shocker, because here comes another. I want to refine my opinion on platonic friendships. I'm not backtracking or saying I was wrong, but my thinking has evolved, and I want to share that with you. Yes that's right. My opinions aren't set in stone.

Specifically, I have in the past seemingly flaunted my opinion that a guy and girl can be friends with each other, in no different way than they are with their same sex friends. I have not changed my view that this is possible. But I do want to say that I think this is the minority, in any community.

So I'm not really backtracking, just flipping to the other side of the coin. Whereas before I found it useful (read: Attention grabbing) to minimize the risks, now I find it overly dramatic to pretend like I was mistaken. Come on, my superior analytic logic couldn't be that flawed...

I've never really bothered to qualify the definition of platonic that I have always used. In my mind, it is easy to be friends with somebody without wanting something more. When that more is an exclusive relationship. But when that more is a purely physical relationship, I think that is harder to separate. When we are with somebody of the opposite sex, on some level, even when we aren't interested in them, there is still some level of curiosity, if you will, in most cases.

And that is where the challenges start. When we are in Yeshiva, living in a controlled dorm forces limits on us that, willingly or not, safeguard us from having to cross any lines unintentionally. But I've been out of that cocoon for a few years now. And I've seen the number it's done on my friends.

One of the biggest debates is whether anybody is Shomer Negia. Notice that the assumption flipped from when we were in Yeshiva. Now I'm not going to dig too much into that debate now, as this post is already getting long. It is my assumption that those people who you know that strive to be more religious in all aspects probably do refrain from physical contact. But those that don't work at their level of religious practice probably aren't. Because frankly, aside from religious commitment, there probably is too much of a draw, and not enough of a reason, not to.

But we are all in that world, those of us who are single after graduating from carefully structured religious institutions. And for those of us not living at home or with another family, there is no intrinsic structure. And so it becomes our own decisions that will relay into whether we stick to the path we were on in Yeshiva, at our religious apex, if you will, or whether we will re-chart our own course.

A lot of this will have to do with the lines we draw. I've hesitated to publicize my line (aside from the fact that I've broken it numerous times, I'm also afraid that I'm shooting myself in the foot), but I've always tried to stay out of single girls' apartments. Anytime. But for me, once you cross that line, you enter into an unchaperoned world where boundaries get tested and there are no referees. That's not to say I would grab the nearest girl at a Shabbos meal. I think we all have some self-control. Probably quite a lot more than we give ourselves credit for. But I believe that there is a certain environment that is conducive to true platonic relationships, such as professional association, where lines are clear, as opposed to hanging out in a girl's apartment, where every decision is so subjective, and not necessarily made with our true goals in mind.

Part of the problem is probably due to a pervasive lack of belief in Gd. Judaism is a rote practice, at best a social club, even within Orthodoxy. If that is all, then an individual will make their own rules behind closed doors. And that is what I see with so many of my friends. We aren't the best judges, when sitting on a couch alone with the opposite sex, of whether a specific relationship is a true platonic relationship or whether curiosity isn't an underlying factor.

I've actually wanted to a do an in depth response to the Shomer Negia blog for a long time. And this wasn't meant to be it. But I don't think the challenges of being Shomer Negia are psychological. They are physical. They are pushing of the normal desires we were created with for good. But we have to realize that with every lifestyle decision we make, we are moving towards Gd or away from him. And if we let ourselves be blinded or fooled by our attitude towards the opposite sex, you can bet which way we'll slide.

Comments:
"Judaism is a rote practice, at best a social club, even within Orthodoxy. If that is all, then an individual will make their own rules behind closed doors."

That's a pretty pretentious and invalid statement if you ask me. Why do you assume that everyone does the worst?

You're delirious if you believe that we are all just these insatiable sexual beings that cannot control ourselves or put our conscious first. Because we're human and have choice, we do not need to give into what is physically tempting.
 
ok, joshy baby- time to get married.

and, nemo- back off...
 
I'm sure to some Judaism may be seen as a rote practice, but that's quite sad. To help people stay shomer negiah, because there are in fact many people that are outside of the shelters of yeshiva, there's shomer yechud.
We can create our own environments. Perhaps you shouldn't hang out with people who are lenient with halacha, until you are confident enough in yourself.
Don't feel like you're shooting yourself in the foot by not going into single girls' apts. There are plenty of guys who don't talk to girls that get married.
 
Maybe you should make it a point to hang out with people who don't practice judaism out of rote, people who actually have thought about what they do every day and have made a staunch and ramrod commitment to it. I know quite a few, so if you want some names give me a buzz.
 
I also think your statement that Judaism is a rote practice is sad. Being somewhat older and single, I know being shomer negia is not easy, but I believe very worth it. I didn't grow up in a religious environment, but found early on that true platonic relationships are rare and maybe impossible for most. I just try to put myself in environments where I won't be constantly tested. Depending on your friends, that can be an easy or hard thing to do. I wish you luck in finding that for yourself. May you be blessed to find your bashert soon!
 
I don't think it's a lack of belief in G-d that causes people to cross lines. Yes, people practice Judaism by rote, but I don't think that necessarily has to do with belief in G-d, I think that has to do with the inability to make certain practices, such as the ones that we engage in on a daily basis, meaningful on that day-to-day basis. I think there are a lot of people out there who believe very strongly in G-d, but are either too tempted by their desires which can, and naturally should, be extremely strong or have a difficult time viewing each and every law, stringency and detail as important, especially without a strong support system, which many singles lack. Peer pressure undoubtably plays a part as well, and the notion that "everyone's doing it" and that a specific person is "missing out" causes the desire to uphold those strictures to wane.

Having said that, I do agree that these decisions do push away from or towards G-d, depending on the choice made. And I think that is what causes a lot of grief among singles who do really care about their relationships with G-d, even if they are unable to handle all that goes along with that at all times.

There are entire blogs worth of what to say, so I'm going to stop now. Good luck with drawing your lines and decisions.
 
Take a cold shower partner - your true side is (accidentaly) showing through...
 
whats his true side? normal healthy male? thank g-d thats his true side.

i do agree with nemo about the first part. some peoples judaism is a rote practice, but i wouldnt say thats what judaism is

but..i disagree with the second thing nemo said - we ARE 'insatiable sexual beings that cannot control ourselves..' and thats why we need to set up precautions when we are still of sane mind.. in matters of shomer negya and men/women relationships it is almsot impossible to hold back once youre faced with the "choice" and so really you make your real choice in the precautions you take, in the lines you draw - in m opinion, that shows where a person is really holding.
i once heard a rabbi said, youre not committing the sin on shabbat when you pick at your chapped lips - that was practically inevitable - youre committing it on sunday when you dont put on chapstick - and you still have a valid choice.
 
Shomer Negiah is very tough once you are in love with someone. I am not advocating breaking it.

Many people who are shomer negiah do break it once strong romantic feelings develop for someone. Often they feel guilty about breaking it.
 
Before I read comments and they affect mine, let me quickly say, Hashem made us to be attracted to the opposite sex. Now for sre there are those who are atrracred to the same sex, but that's another issue. If a person is heterosexual, given time they'll find something about their friend they're attraced to. Something about their smile, their walk, the way they talk, or write...lol It's human nature. Some people have the will not to act on it, while others just aren't that strong. I have yet to become friends with a guy that within time I didn't find myself attracted to him in some way shape or form. I think the idea of not being around many guys or girls to being with can have something to do with it too. If you're always steered away, you can't help but look and blush when you get the chance. Being shomer negia is much harder than it seems. And the older you get the worse it gets I think. And now I'll go read the other comments.
 
Ugh sorry for all the typos hope it's understandable lol
 
All - Great comments so far. I'm off to Israel for two weeks. I may check in from there, but if not, Happy Chanukah!
 
If you keep it casual, distanced, or professional...or have very definite boundaries..and if it's not exclusive THEN perhaps you can have a platonic relationship..but then..it's not really a friendship or relationship, is it? it's just someone you know..
And the thing is..even..if it is someone you 'just know'...
if the association is kept for a number of years..eventually..the connection grows deeper..and then probably one or the other will begin to feel 'less platonic'...
I don't know, Josh..I'd like to think platonic relationships can really work..and I know I have tried....but, no joy so far - lol
 
Alright, so apparently, if you log onto Blogger from Austria, it translates everything into German. And if you let a little Austrian kid play with your laptop, you lose your comment when he shuts down your computer.

Nemo and others - I didn't mean to say that Judaism is a rote religion. I merely meant to say that for those who practice it as rote, it becomes that much harder to defeat your Yetzer Hora. My writing was unintentionally confusing this time.

BB - Too bad there is only one of you.

RIT - It is quite sad that Judaism can become rote. I believe that shomer negia is just a symptom, not the cause. But I do think that once some people give in to this desire unintentionally, they consciously start to reevaluate all their level of religion in many cases. And that's not what I meant by shooting myself in the foot.

T - I don't know if that's true. I think opportunity plays a much bigger role than chevra. I think that having a place a guy can go with a girl in private is a risk that even the best guys in the best groups face. That's why I'm a big believe of living with a family or in a dorm until your married, because I think that plays a much bigger role in your spiritual grounding than who your friends are. Do you think the guy who moves into his own apartment to be near a beis medrash is "safer" than the guy who lives in the Yeshiva but is friends with guys hwo don't war Yarmulkes?

Anon - Very tough. It's hard not be grounded, especially when the benefits of doing our own thing are so high, at least in the short term.

Sh-ana- You've said what I meant to say so much better. I should just have you write my blog.

Anon- Nothing on this blog is accidental.

Mookie - Absolutely right, you can tell a lot more about a person by their choices than about where they are. A person can be weak, so it is where they stand when they are strong that reveals their ideals. A person's level of strength vs weakness shouldn't be confused with high vs low ideals. This is a whole different problem in the dating world, where people write each other off, because somebody isn't "frum" enough, when really they just have the same temptations as you.

Anon - It is tough. But many people objectively see is as wrong. So what changes that it becomes allowed? What can be done to prevent it? Both those questions trace a person's priorities much better than what kind of Kippa they wear. Also, I think older singles tend to get more picky. As we learn to be more independent, we are less open to differences in other people and compromising. That same intransience and self serving nature makes finding a mate more complicated, as well as subjugating ourselves before Gd. As we become ever more the center of our world, putting aside our desires becomes ever harder. I think that is one reason why I find girls who tell me al about how happy they are that they have their own room in their apartment so unattractive. They don't exactly shound like team players.

Sara - Absolutely normal (even with the typos). All we can do is be honest and recognize our own Yetzer. As we know, a Yetzer can be either a Yetzer Hora or a Yetzer Tov. It's all about how we use it. So the greater the desire, the greater the potential. I guess the question is how do you take singles without a support system and find a way to help them make the most of their drives.

TOWIK - I think they're elusive, because the more we get to know somebody, the more we get to trust them. And the more we get to trust them, the more we want to exploit that trust to our mutual benefit. Not to be too graffic, but are their different types of non-shomer negia behavior? Is there a difference between acting out of love and acting out of release? As I said, I think you have to figure out how to define platonic, because anything can be made clean with semantics.
 
By 'exploiting that trust for mutual benefits' -
Do you mean to say...that the closer one gets, the more one wants to benefit the other...
and the resulting actions can be unsanctimonious? or even simply 'too close for comfort'?..playing on the mind...
Hmmmm....not sure if that's what you meant..



I def think that there are levels of being shomer negiah..( I married early..and have been for a number of years...and so have never had the experience of not being SN)...)
The further one goes, the stronger the impact, I would think....but perhaps not..
(I am not sure why your question came up, though..)

Most importantly..in answer to my question...you asked the question with the elusive answer...
'What is a platonic relationship?(and if there is no good answer..perhaps it does not exist..?')


If I'd have to define platonic ..I'd say..

A friendship between members of the opposite sex in which both have no interest in discovering more about the other in any way shape or form, and are happy to remain in contact nevertheless,

(btw - in the Reader's Digest, I once read that unless at least one of the pair, finds the other at least vaguely revolting...considering the friendship platonic is almost impossible - lol)
 
"But we have to realize that with every lifestyle decision we make, we are moving towards Gd or away from him"
Can we vote about the quote of the year on this.
Oh ya, there no such a thing as a platonic relationship.
Except as a paradoxical expression.
 
does that mean you wouldn't know it if the right girl came your way? (the erase? Don't think I didn't notice)
 
Hi, Josh. Came across this entry quite by accident. Wonder if you're still reading these comments. But I'm struggling with what I thought was a platonic relationship, and now I'm beginning to wonder if indeed it isn't a paradoxical expression as yingerman put it. But then again, a passionate marriage is an oxymoron as well... Life is all about these ironies. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Check out my blog: sarah-solo.blogspot.com. I attempted to address these issues as I'm struggling with them myself. Perhaps you can help?
 
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