Monday, August 15, 2005

On the Opposite Sex and Sexual Mores

In a prior post, I flaunted certain relationships I maintain with girls. And as Elisheva pointed out, this was in seeming contradiction to another previous post where I discussed the Nisyonos (tests) that every guy faces with the opposite sex. In my brash embrace of hyperbole, I failed to fully discuss each issue, and because I feel both are so important to treat properly (as well as not to sound hypocritical), I'll try and fill in the gaps.

The "distractions" I mentioned emanating from the opposite sex were just that- distractions. It wasn't a metaphor for anything dirtier. Not that I (and every guy) doesn't fantasize, but a walk down the street doesn't morph into a wild orgy. My point was that frum girls drive me wild in another way, in their underlying (Tznius) attractive sense. (For the record, the word "depraved" in the original post was supposed to be "deprived." I thought it was harmless irony at the time, but alas, it appears I must be more exact.) I am always on the prowl- for possible marriage partners. Where ever a frum girl is, my mind starts to wander. For example, a girl can be behind a mechitza at shul on Tisha B'Av and I'll still be thinking about her. It's not sexual. The idea that a girl may be present can be distracting. It's like my instinct to find a mate just kicks in.

And my post on female friends failed to clarify that I am very particular in how I'm friends with girls. I don't just hang out and get ice cream with any skirt that comes along. In fact, I spend very little time with the opposite sex. Had one of the girls mentioned in that post not been visiting from out of town, I probably wouldn't have made an effort to get together. (I'm curious to know what I should fear once she leaves town. Probably her boyfriend.) And had the other girl not had an issue that she needed to talk to somebody about, I probably wouldn't have spent so long on the phone with her. I don't just go flirt with anybody, but that doesn't mean that I won't treat a female with the same loyalty and compassion that anybody deserves.

Don't think that I'm naive about what could happen. I have many SELF created stringencies to assure that I don't stumble. I'm very particular about what is appropriate conversation, and what is an appropriate place to meet. And if all else fails, I have my beard to ensure that no physical contact will ever evolve.

The bottom line is that I was exaggerating my point to show that, at the end of the day, I don't have a problem with speaking to the opposite sex in defiance of a communal norm. A person benefits more from self imposed rules than assuming a societal based standard. How so? It's too easy for the reason for these rules to get lost in the details. Accordingly, people raised in absolute communities won't necessarily curtail their sexual appetites, because they are told that the limits imposed on them will do the trick. This leaves them ill prepared to deal with the personal nature of the feelings that can overwhelm them. It's a known Halachic insight that every Chumra (stringency) has it's kula (leniency). Enforcing a rigid standard may feel like the best protection, but it can often have weakening consequences.

The intention of my post was mainly to force us to think critically about how we define the rules. In Judaism, there is the sacrosanct Halacha, from the Torah all the way down to Minhagim. My point was that beyond that we only have to answer to Gd and ourselves for our behavior. There is no issur (rule against) getting ice cream with a girl. If somebody wants to restrict themselves from this in order to restrain him/herself, great. If they choose to live in a community where everybody shares this concern, great. If they choose to enforce these rules on their children, that's their perogative. But this restriction is not part of the religion. I am responsible for my own actions. If I haven't taken enough steps to safeguard my actual behavior then I'll face my judgment. But just because you feel that I am at risk of "crashing" doesn't make my actions in and of themselves wrong.

The sages advise a man to keep his eyes within his own Daled Amos (four cubits) in order to avoid seeing anything that will lead him astray. Does that mean that looking outside of this box is a violation? It is only well intentioned advice. Only if you follow the forbidden have you violated anything. Again, as long as somebody is being honest with the risks they face, and are clear about what behavior crosses the line, you can't really have any complaint against them.

Similarly, although it is the norm for Yeshivos to learn Gemara (Talmud) B'Chavrusa (in pairs), am I a heretic if I learn Navi (the Prophets) by myself? If I decide that I don't learn torah better in a chavrusa, that doesn't mean I'm not doing a Mitzva (commandment). It sure beats turning to television because Talmud doesn't speak to you and no other learning is respected. Even if the Rabbis say you will learn better that way. They may be right- for the majority. That doesn't mean that I can recognize myself as the exception to their rule, and find my own way to best fulfill the word of Gd. I'm not saying you can make your own rules, or choose Halacha. But there is plenty of gray area where an individual can best define what will be the best spiritual incentive for him/herself.

Of course, I recognize that there are other factors at stake other than worries of forbidden physical contact. I must be true to three people: myself, my friend, and my (future) spouse. For myself, not only do I have to be sure that this encounter won't escalate into something forbidden, but that it won't hinder my growth in other ways. I can't be using this relationship to feed my ego, or to waste my time flirting and ignoring loftier aspirations. (Of course, I should be doing other things than hanging out with girls. I should also be doing other things than blogging. Nobody seems to question that. )

I also have to be sure that the girl I am speaking with is on the same page as me. Not just as far as the religious framework that we are working within, but also that the emotions are clear. It is important to be sure that you are not leading anybody on.

And finally, there is the question of exclusivity that comes with a monogamous relationship. While I haven't been there yet, I can understand that you must be conscious of how this "third wheel" might be perceived- and how you will have little control over those feelings. While I'd like to assume that I can find an open minded girl who doesn't feel threatened and jealous on all fronts, I have to be sensitive to the feelings of the girls I'm friends with- and that I may be forced to separate from. But all friendships grow and fade, and as long as you avoid betrayal- to any party you care about- I think you can continue to gain from having diverse friendships.

It's important to note that my background may be different than yours, and I may have different sensitivities than others. I'm glad you guys disagree. You learn more from people with different opinions than from those who just shout "Right on!" Thanks and keep up the good work of keeping me in line. Keep asking questions. I'll keep making up the answers.

Comments:
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you think about a lone man on an island. No offense but chumras are issued to maintain decorum for EVERYONE and just because apparently you think that you are above those chumrah's doesn't make it ok for you to defy them. Also, by stating that there is no basis in Halacha to avoid contact with the opposite gender (aside from the purpose of shidduchim) is a terribly wrong statement. To name a few, check out Igros Moshe on this issue and further there is always the mishna that states "Al Tarbeh Sicha Im Haisha" -- where one should not have conversations with women unecessarily. So I would read up on those Halochos before making such a judgement call. Also, be weary of the second partie's feelings, you NEVER truly know what they are thinking, you may think you know and you may think you have openly discussed it but people often times hide what they are feeling, especially when interacting with someone they like more than just a friend.

In any case, good luck with your self assigned rules...
 
A correction -- in the first sentence: "about" should really be "like"
 
There is no issur (rule against) getting ice cream with a girl.

That's debatable and I'm sure Frumteens would disagree.
 
YN- Actually, chumros are not issued. Psak Halacha is made. But that is a different issue. My point is that saying, "Hi" to a girl is not forbidden in Halacha. Neither is saying a complete sentence. Or a complete paragraph. When does it become Assur? When you touch her. "Al Tarbeh" is the advice that's meant to keep you from that. If you ignore that advice, and don't fail, than you haven't done anything wrong. (Of course, I agree, that if you do slip, you're in pretty hot water.)

As far as any specifics in Igros Moshe, you haven't mentioned any, so I can't comment. And as far as the other party's feelings, that is certainly non-halachic, and as long as one doesn't intend any harm, I don't see why he should be blamed. Such emotions are not inevitable in my mind. I know we disagree on that, but I don't think either one of us can prove our opinion, so I wouldn't rush to any judgments.

Nephtuli - I'll need a reference to take your assertion seriously. And no, Frumteens won't count.
 
I forgot two quick points -

1) There are obvious Tachlis benefits to having single friends of both sexes. I can say that all of my shidduchim have been through this route, and I have in turn set up others.

2) The difference between my reaction to a female friend and the waitresses mentioned in the prior post is that I have already eliminated my female friends as being for me. The waitresses on the other hand...
 
I'll reiterate my point in that you think like a lone man on an island. How can you outright say that your concern is not of the other person's party!!! I'm quite surprised in your response!! You are correct in that it's Halachos but you as a frum, G-d fearing Jew should be concerned about things like that! No one is saying that saying hello to a person of the opposite sex or having a quick conversation is assur -- In truth I think that's is sincere derech eretz (usually) -- The problem is when we start taking girls for 'ice cream' or having 2 hour conversations to discuss their life issues. There is a balance -- but I think unfortunately you're going to the the total oppisite extreme.

To respond to your points individually:
1)As much as their is a Tachlis benefit -- you should treat it as a buisness endeavor rather than an actual friendship. Talk to married couples force them to be helpful.

2)Again, just because you have elimintaed those girls from your sphere doesn't mean they have and again ignoring that fact, is a totally selfish act unbecoming of a ben Torah
 
My point is that saying, "Hi" to a girl is not forbidden in Halacha.

The Shulchan Aruch specifically outlaws greeting a woman in a friendly way as a form of keriva l'arayos. The only question is whether that psak is subjective and based on society's mores of what constitutes sexual behavior or whether its objective and is halacha regardless of whether it's considered a form of flirting.

Touching is assur because of its objective even if in the future (or maybe even the present) hugging is no longer sexual. Hair covering for a married woman is also objective according to vast majority of poskim. The obligations of tznius in regards to dress for women is subjective, which is why women in America are under no obligation to cover their face.

I'm not sure about greeting a women though. Perhaps a future topic for Hirhurim?
 
Sorry Josh, I have been like absent from your blog, and I MISSED SO MUCH! Your blog truly has so much real food for thought.

First of all thank you for the clarification. i definitely understand what you are saying alot better. What you say about chumros which become kulos is so true, and I so understans where a personal line can be more realistic than a one-size-fits-all standard.

I do agree maybe a little with the others though, that you still need communal standards, because many will in weak moments just disregard any standard and get in big trouble, so i guess the Torah knows that standards are needed regardless. But you are right Josh, that one should like understand the idea, and it shouldn't be a dry thing which can lead to bigger kulos.

Shalom
 
I would like to remphasize a number of points to truly bring across my point. I'm going to speak on the emotional level, whereas nephtuli can handle the actual sources and basis for my reasoning.

1) Just because you have eliminated your girl friends as prospects for you, does not mean on any level that those girls have eliminated you from their list of prospects. A great scenario would be a girl who has either a blatant crush or a secret crush on a guy whom she happens to speak to at night for a couple of hours at a shot. It might not be everyday and only once a week or maybe even less. If she's good at playing her game, she'll intentionally hide her feelings from you with much success because you as a male generally don't pick up on such nuansces (seperate discussion!). As long as the guy continues to call or appeal to her emotional needs (whether it be you being the savior of her bad mood that evening) she'll continue to like you more and more and her crush for you on any level will only intesify. Now, I know you think that what I'm saying is only speculation but maybe pick up the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" and maybe speak to DOCTOR John Gray (the author) and have him explain female psyche to you because this aspect of life seems to evade you spectrum of knowledge. Any girl would intellectualy agree with me, as long as she is not an involved party. One who is involved, would deny these claims on all levels to ensure that her 'crush' would call and she could maintain that relationship on whatever level.

2) About Halochos and Community standards. Just because you think you are above those standards, obviousl Rabbis have institued these laws and standards because there is a general problem. Who are we to walk around and say 'well I'm ok in such and such area so the heck with those halochos and what not, I know what I'm doing'. Often times you'll slip up when you are not on your gaurd -- and for your information not everyone is scared off by a beard!!!! In fact it attracts some just as it detracts others. Every Halacha was institued because there IS and issue -- and you are NOT above that and to decide that the advice of the Pirkei Avos does not apply to you...well....that's a bit scary for a young, modern day lad to intentionally throw out parts of our age old lessons to life.

3)I would like to clarify that saying hello and speaking pleasantly to the opposite sex is deffinitely not assur, but one should be honest where to draw the line. Having lengthy conversations late at night is DEFFINITELY over stepping the boundry.

I wish you much luck in whatever decisions you make and again, be weary of other people's sensitivities and feelings. You may say that you truly do care but your actions don't show that.
 
Hey, how come I got stuck with all the dirty work?

To make myself clear, I'm just saying that we cannot unequivocally say greeting a girl is not assur. I'll wait for Hirhurim to deal with it. :-)
 
There are three points to respond to.

1) YN - You are asserting that there are certain emotional connections to any guy/girl relationship. I disagree. I'm not sure why you can't pleasantly see this as a subjective discussion where neither of us can be absolutely right. All I can say is that I have no intention of hurting anybody, and this certainly is not a religious arguement to begin with.

2) Nephtuli - As far as any sources are concerned, I take them seriously. I have no intention of disregarding halacha, or rereading it. My original contention was with community standards that are not part of halacha. There are plenty of stringencies considered standard in the Chareidi community that are not codified in law. My assertion is that there is no reason for an individual to opt out of those practices if he honestly doesn't feel that negative consequences will result. Please don't think that I'm Reform. I'm trying to think inside the box- I'm just questioning what the box really is.

3) As far as having community rules, don't get me wrong, I support them. I think the only way to govern a diverse populace is to establish norms that work for most. What I am suggesting is that individuals who recognize they are outside that norm shouldn't feel bad quietly doing their own thing. If they recognize that the communal standard doesn't accomplish anything for them, and if they can quietly go about their own life without flaunting it, then why not? If nobody has a TV in the community, why shouldn't somebody who feels there's no problem for them not have one? I would just say they shouldn't leave it in their living room where it might be misleading to others.
 
I'm going to state one last time -- that you fail to think about everyone else around you and how your actions affect those people. I'll respond to the TV matter -- where if one individual who decides that it's ok and deviates from the norm -- you don't think that has consequences on others?! your kid and his kid are friends -- you don't allow your kid to watch TV -- so you're going to ban the kid from going over to his friend, an innocent bystander, hard to swallow and do if you ask me.

You have to realize that as subjective as the rules of guy/ girl relationships may be to you, they are not subjective to most people in this world. I think you should take a deeper look into how your actions affect others around you and more importantly those that you involve in your defiance of community norms.

Everyone wishes that their actions could go unnoticed, unfortunate for us as Jews -- actions were never meant to go unnoticed and one should think seriously about what he or she is doing. You may not see yourself as being selfish, but not caring about other people's feelings in a given community or ignoring the feelings of a girl you speak to is certainly selfish in most people's books. I'm saddened to hear that you are failing to look closer and see other people's feelings. For better or for worse (JK!!) I know you in person and your oppinion shocks me...
 
I would also like to add one more point that a friend of mine (Yes, a Chicagoan in fact) who stated that female -female relationships are ALWAYS an emotional connection. girls connect to each other on their feelings and emotions about different aspects of their lives (amazing that we think about things other than shoes and clothes) and thus creating this deep connection. Did you ever notice how if girls don't talk to each other for long periods of time their friendships generally dwindle? and how guys could be away from each other for years and then they see each other and life is great and they are like best friends who never left each other. Just because YOU don't form that emotional connection, by the sheer nature of being a guy does not mean on ANY level that the girl did not form it with you. rule of thumb about females, they talk to people -- girl and guy a like only for a given reason. You know how everyone makes fun of girls because they are catty -- well there is some truth in the sense that we are not just friends with anyone and when we're not friends were REALLY not friends.

Again, good luck with your craziness, but you're going to get yourself into some hot water one day and drag a poor innocent girl down with you.
 
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